The Scriptures mention nothing of a second coming. The Messiah was not supposed to be divine.

 

Please elaborate.

Go to your local video store and rent " The Case for Christ " by Strobel. It is very interesting and very educational as well. I am a new Christian and this really answered some questions my secular mind had.

Yeah Mr. Gooch, thats a goodie right there. Messiah in Hebrew means "MASHIAH" which translate to "the annointed One".

 

Wonder why there wasn't more about Jesus after the age of 12? Did Joseph live until Jesus was almost 30, or did he die after Jesus was 12 or so?

The Psalms werent meant to be prophetic

 

Why are they repeatedly used in that manner in the New Testament? Was Paul and the other writers of the New Testament mistaken?

^That's the first thing that jumped out at me...the seeming implication by some that others are erroneously attributing a prophetic nature to the Psalms. However, in doing so, we are only following the example set by the writers of the New Testament.

 

Personally, I'm not smart enough to connect the dots of these Psalms and apply them to Jesus. However, I believe that the New Testament was written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I do believe the Holy Spirit is wise enough to interpret the Psalms.

 

So, when John writes, "This was to fulfill the Scripture which says, 'They divided my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.'" (John 19:24; Psalm 22:18), I trust his interpretation.

Why are they repeatedly used in that manner in the New Testament? Was Paul and the other writers of the New Testament mistaken?

 

Can you show me the specific passages that are quoted by Paul. Is he using them in a prophetic utterance or an illustrative one?

 

Again, the Psalms were not intended as prophetic oracle but as hymnody for the worship of God.

^That's the first thing that jumped out at me...the seeming implication by some that others are erroneously attributing a prophetic nature to the Psalms. However, in doing so, we are only following the example set by the writers of the New Testament.

 

Personally, I'm not smart enough to connect the dots of these Psalms and apply them to Jesus. However, I believe that the New Testament was written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I do believe the Holy Spirit is wise enough to interpret the Psalms.

 

So, when John writes, "This was to fulfill the Scripture which says, 'They divided my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.'" (John 19:24; Psalm 22:18), I trust his interpretation.

 

 

I have no problem at all with John drawing that inference but that was not the intent of the Psalms let alone Psalm 22. It was a song of lament which Jesus even magnifies on the cross with his own pain. But these "prophetic" statements are made "after the fact" as a connection to the past faith tradition. For us to go "digging" for prophetic utterances from the Psalms that aren't listed by the NT writers is to invite an interpretation that God did not intend on these songs.

 

I've heard a faith healer once quote a text from Eziekiel as a "promise" from God that faith will stop bleeding. He quoted a text that talked about blood being "wiped away." There it was. Problem was that the verse was part of an allegorical presentation about God giving birth to a child "Israel" and like a good mother wiping the blood off of the child after birth.

 

So you can see how I choose to allow scripture to speak first within context and then later to see their connectivity to other events and scripture.

Can you show me the specific passages that are quoted by Paul. Is he using them in a prophetic utterance or an illustrative one?

 

Again, the Psalms were not intended as prophetic oracle but as hymnody for the worship of God.

 

I did a study about 18 months ago Jesus in the OT, the book is at home and I cannot remember the Psalm, but I remember one of the Psalms being used as talking about the Messiah and who He would be.

I did a study about 18 months ago Jesus in the OT, the book is at home and I cannot remember the Psalm, but I remember one of the Psalms being used as talking about the Messiah and who He would be.

 

Some Psalms emodied the hope of and for the Messiah. (there aren't many but a couple if I recall correctly) These are songs that celebrated the hope of that promise much as our songs "When We All Get to Heaven" and "Jesus is coming soon" or "I can only Imagine" are a vision of Jesus and the kingdom as well.

The other thing that jumped out at me while reading this thread. When the topic of discussion is Messianic prophecies and why the Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, we sometimes forget that the latter point is a prophecy in itself.

 

1 Peter 2:4-8 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone," and "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

 

In that passage, Peter quotes Isaiah 28:16, Psalm 118:22, and Isaiah 8:14 to make his point. Jesus himself quoted Psalm 118:22 (Matthew 21:42 and Luke 20:17). Paul also quotes Isaiah 28:16 to make the same point in Romans 9:33. And later on in Romans, Paul writes...

 

Romans 11:7-10 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever."

 

Here Paul references verses from Isaiah (ch. 29 & 43) and quotes Psalm 69:22,23 to make this point.

 

Here is what John wrote...

 

John 12:37-40 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

 

Here John quotes Isaiah 53:1 and 6:10 to make the point. And finally, Isaiah 6:9,10 was quoted in Acts...

 

Acts 28:25-28 And disagreeing among themselves, they departed after Paul had made one statement: "The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet: 'Go to this people, and say, You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.' Therefore, let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen."

 

 

We shouldn't be surprised by the rejection of Jesus by the majority of Jews...the fact that it would/will happen is stated through the New Testament (and the Bible).

I have no problem at all with John drawing that inference but that was not the intent of the Psalms let alone Psalm 22. It was a song of lament which Jesus even magnifies on the cross with his own pain. But these "prophetic" statements are made "after the fact" as a connection to the past faith tradition. For us to go "digging" for prophetic utterances from the Psalms that aren't listed by the NT writers is to invite an interpretation that God did not intend on these songs.

 

I've heard a faith healer once quote a text from Eziekiel as a "promise" from God that faith will stop bleeding. He quoted a text that talked about blood being "wiped away." There it was. Problem was that the verse was part of an allegorical presentation about God giving birth to a child "Israel" and like a good mother wiping the blood off of the child after birth.

 

So you can see how I choose to allow scripture to speak first within context and then later to see their connectivity to other events and scripture.

 

My intention is not to advocate people digging through Psalms to find "messianic prophecies". It's merely to defend the ones that are stated as so by the writers of the New Testament...and they are numerous. Whether you choose to view them as prophetic or "connections to the past faith tradition" is just a matter of semantics to me. Virtually the entire Old Testament is a foreshadowing of Christ and His work...the Psalms, being a part of the Old Testament, are not excluded from that.

The Scriptures mention nothing of a second coming. The Messiah was not supposed to be divine.

 

According to whom or where? (meaning what OT Scripture?)

The Jews are maticulous(sp) with their Scripture, I belive they would know it a little better than us.

 

Let's say you correct here for argument's sake.

 

Weren't the disciples and the writer's of the NT Jews, first, and would be as you say meticulous with their Scripture?

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

 

 

This part seems to be no different than what Jesus struggled with the Jewish leaders in His day. He was not what they expected Him to be, what they WANTED Him to be, so they discarded Him. Where they say that he filled none of the prophecies, I think it would be accurate to say that he didn't fill them in the manner they wanted them filled.

I found this interesting....

 

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

 

The nation began on what Abraham and Sarah thought was a miracle that she would conceive a child.

 

Then we have more miracles of getting Israel out of Egypt.

 

I would call the whole Red Sea story a miracle.

What about Gideon and that battle? That a miracle?

How about Israel waking up each morning to find manna like dew? That a miracle?

And reading just OT, there is miracle after miracle after miracle in the history of Israel.