John McCain - Just another RINO?

[HHSDad]

I'm beginning to doubt that John McCain is a conservative by any measure, unless the measure is Rudy Guliani.

 

Immigration - Co-authored the "Who needs borders" bill with Ted Kennedy

 

Global Warming - Introduced the Climate Stewardship Act

 

Energy Independence - Yesterday in South Carolina announced his opposition to drilling in ANWR.

 

Campaign Reform - McCain-Feingold. Need I say more?

 

Tort Reform - McCain-Kennedy-Edwards allowed tort attorneys to ransack the tobbacco companies.

 

Gang of 14 - effectivily ended the chance of appointing conservative judges

 

Terrorism - McCain has repeatedly called for the closing of Guantanamo Bay and the introduction of al-Quaeda terrorists into our own prisons

 

Tax Cuts - Opposed both the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts

[H]

I'm beginning to doubt that John McCain is a conservative by any measure, unless the measure is Rudy Guliani.

 

Immigration - Co-authored the "Who needs borders" bill with Ted Kennedy

 

Global Warming - Introduced the Climate Stewardship Act

 

Energy Independence - Yesterday in South Carolina announced his opposition to drilling in ANWR.

 

Campaign Reform - McCain-Feingold. Need I say more?

 

Tort Reform - McCain-Kennedy-Edwards allowed tort attorneys to ransack the tobbacco companies.

 

Gang of 14 - effectivily ended the chance of appointing conservative judges

 

Terrorism - McCain has repeatedly called for the closing of Guantanamo Bay and the introduction of al-Quaeda terrorists into our own prisons

 

Tax Cuts - Opposed both the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts

 

 

Who, in your opinion, is a conservative?

[Habib]

Who, in your opinion, is a conservative?

 

I know the answer. And that guy is nuts.

 

McCain isn't a hard-lining conservative, but I don't know that all Republicans have to be.

[HHSDad]

I know the answer. And that guy is nuts.

 

McCain isn't a hard-lining conservative, but I don't know that all Republicans have to be.

Are you talking about Paul? I'd agree, but he may be too big of a loon for my vote. Guliani is a liberal and McCain at best is a left leaning moderate.

 

I'd say the most conservative candidates would be (in order):

Duncan Hunter

Alan Keyes

Tom Tancredo

Chuck Hagel

Sam Brownback

Mitt Romney

Jim Gilmore

Newt Gingrich

Mike Huckabee

Fred Thompson

John McCain

Rudy Guliani

 

I didn't include Ron Paul, because I consider him more of a Libertarian than a conservative.

[cch5432]

 

 

I didn't include Ron Paul, because I consider him more of a Libertarian than a conservative.

 

I'd put him on the list, the only differences between Libertarian and so-called Republicans are this war and gay rights, correct?

 

If Guiliani and McCain are on this list of conservatives, he should be too.

[cch5432]

Are you talking about Paul? I'd agree, but he may be too big of a loon for my vote. Guliani is a liberal and McCain at best is a left leaning moderate.

 

I'd say the most conservative candidates would be (in order):

Duncan Hunter

Alan Keyes

Tom Tancredo

Chuck Hagel

Sam Brownback

Mitt Romney

Jim Gilmore

Newt Gingrich

Mike Huckabee

Fred Thompson

John McCain

Rudy Guliani

 

I didn't include Ron Paul, because I consider him more of a Libertarian than a conservative.

 

What makes Fred Thompson so low on this list? I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking.

[Habib]

Are you talking about Paul? I'd agree, but he may be too big of a loon for my vote. Guliani is a liberal and McCain at best is a left leaning moderate.

 

Ah, I was trying to make fun of Tancredo but I forgot a smiley face.

[HHSDad]

I'd put him on the list, the only differences between Libertarian and so-called Republicans are this war and gay rights, correct?

 

If Guiliani and McCain are on this list of conservatives, he should be too.

Libertarians are more about non-interference by government. While that goes along with the conservative idea of small government, most libertarians don't care what the issue is, the government is wrong every time and should mind its own business.

 

Thompson should be higher. His least conservative position is on gays where he finds civil unions acceptable.

 

My list wasn't in order of my preferences, but just who I thought was most conservative.

[TonyDanza]

McCain is old and looks like he could croak at any minute.

 

Got himself a hot little young wife though!

[leatherneck]

I'm beginning to doubt that John McCain is a conservative by any measure, unless the measure is Rudy Guliani.

 

Immigration - Co-authored the "Who needs borders" bill with Ted Kennedy

 

Global Warming - Introduced the Climate Stewardship Act

 

Energy Independence - Yesterday in South Carolina announced his opposition to drilling in ANWR.

 

Campaign Reform - McCain-Feingold. Need I say more?

 

Tort Reform - McCain-Kennedy-Edwards allowed tort attorneys to ransack the tobbacco companies.

 

Gang of 14 - effectivily ended the chance of appointing conservative judges

 

Terrorism - McCain has repeatedly called for the closing of Guantanamo Bay and the introduction of al-Quaeda terrorists into our own prisons

 

Tax Cuts - Opposed both the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts

 

If I can respond to the points you raised in the reverse order:

 

Tax cuts. Low taxes is definitely part of the Republican platform. McCain has repeatedly explained why he initially voted against the tax cuts, but people don't seem to listen. He voted against the cuts because the bill did not also require commmensurate reductions in spending. In other words, McCain wanted the cuts to not increase the deficit spending. That seems like a pretty Republican thing to me, but I guess not to his Republican detractors. The below link is a pretty good article by Novak (whom I've had the pleasure to host down may farm). I have a tendency to agree with the Democratic advisor that told Novak that McCain is the only Republican that can win in 08.

 

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?articleId=83b9554f-198e-43ab-8df6-f93b4ccac7cd&headline=Robert+Novak%3A+McCain's+votes+may+still+be+a+problem+in+November

 

Next, the terrorism. Implying that he would not be tough on terrorism solely because he advocates closing the prisons at Gitmo is quite a leap isn't it? I sincerely doubt that there is any candidate of either party that is as qualified to fight terrorism than McCain. Furthermore, I totally fail to understand how shutting down Gitmo hurts our fight against terrorism. I think you best fight terrorism with stong diplomacy and a strong military. McCain more than any other candidate has those credentials. And those qualities are definitely long established Republican principles, aren't they?

 

Next the Gang of 14. While the process has become laborious and painful, I think Bush has been able to appoint some qualified judges to the Supreme Ct. While Wicki sometimes is inaccurate so I post the following link with caution, it does a pretty good job of summarizing McCain's positions and the efforts of the Gang of 14 to find compromise and moderation (two qualities that we desparately need in Washington these days):

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_14

 

And wasn't the compromise better than the nuclear option alternative? Personally as a lawyer, I do not like persons with extreme philosophical positions serving as judges. Very dangerous. And when we do it when we are in power, the Democrats do it when they are in power. Which is a stupid way to fill our judgeships in my opinion as it results in dramatic swings in decisions which is not a good thing for the law.

 

Next the tobacco point. While I support tobacco use and corporate America (I better as I'm a corporate lawyer) and loath plaintiff lawyers as a general rule (sorry Hearsay), it is beyond logic to believe that the tobacco companies were being honest with Americans. They got what was coming to them for their dishonesty. And it took the plaintiffs bar to make that happen. I hate to admit it, but its true. McCain didn't allow the tort lawyers to ransack the tobacco companies; the tobacco companies allowed the tort lawyers to ransack the tobacco companies.

 

Campaign reform. Still think its a good idea. Don't think McCain Feingold is perfect at all. But at least it was an effort to reduce the undue influence in Washington. As I recall, it like a lot of McCain's positions was a compromise to get some reform passed. Most Americans agree with the concept that there is way too much corrupt influence on our politicians.

 

ANWR. I don't agree with McCain's position.

 

 

Global Warming. Why do you think the Act is bad? Link to summary of the Act: http://www.pewclimate.org/policy_center/analyses/s_139_summary.cfm.

 

Here is another link analyzing the impact of the Act. Its rather voluminous, but the economic impact of the Act begins on page 218. All in all, the economic impact isn't very bad/maybe even good over time and if anything, the study concludes that it would stimulate much more research into energy reduction and more effective energy consumption which is a good thing. Enjoy reading this one. It will take a while; trust me as I read it.

 

And last immigration. Getting beyond the fact that shutting the borders and throwing the illegals out has never been on any "official" Republican platform that I can recall or for that matter isn't one of what I call the Republican principles, I'm not sure why being for amnesty makes him a RINO. I know lots of pro business, corporate, conservative types Republicans that support amnesty if its linked with securing the borders. The myth about illegals causing a disproportionate amount of crime or sucking up a disproportionate of entitlements and benefits has been de-bunked. Its just not true. I, like McCain, do think we need to tighten our borders for homeland security purposes. But I think we need the low cost labor pool in our economy that immigrants provide. Face it, there is a very low percentage of Americans willing to do a lot of jobs at the wages paid. Cut off this labor pool and get ready for higher prices. Furthermore, I still regard this country as the shining beacon. As long as people being entered into this country are placed in the system, pay taxes, speak English, and are good contributors to society, I'm fine with a permissive immigration policy. I've never feared competition.

 

My final thoughts. Most of the issues you raised are domestic issues. Face it, the President while powerful has limited domestic issues powers. Domestic issues get vetted and beaten around in Congress ad nauseum. The American public has the opportunity to provide their input and thoughts. Whereas, foreign policy, intelligence and military matters sometimes don't, necessarily, see that same amount of sunshine. Thus the person elected as President, better have a very good grasp of those issues, due to the lack of vetting and debate. To me, terrorism and foreign policy matters remain the highest priority as mistakes in those areas can undo all the good domestic decisions we make with a single explosion. When I put my head on the pillow at night, I want the person making the decision whether we should launch missiles at Iran or decide to cut or increase intelligence spending or approve covert missions to know what he is doing and understand the ramifications. McCain is the only one qualified to handle those issues.

 

If McCain is a RINO because he is the moderate that supposedly America has been clamoring for, in lieu of the extemist politicians of both parties, then I guess he's a RINO and I guess I am too. I'm tired of people opposing any type of tax increase dictating our Country and State. I'm tired of the Right to Life's endorsement or lack thereof deciding who is our best elected official. Its long been the political wisdom that we'll never have a moderate president because that person can't make it out of the primaries. With no Republican candidate fully satisfying all the 3 wings of the Republican Party, maybe McCain can win the primary this year and maybe America will finally elect someone willing to listen to the other side; willing to put aside partisan politics and beliefs for the best interests of the country; and able to pull this country back together. I think we have a rare opportunity to do that this year. Will McCain make the extremists of both parties happy? Nope, then again I don't care if he does. Heck, he'll probably irritate me with some of his positions and decisions. I can live with that if on balance he's unifying and moving this country forward and keeping you, me and our families safe. If McCain's moderate positions make him a RINO, I say thank goodness he's a RINO. I'm tired of the partisan hacks of both parties more interested in placating the extremists in their party than doing what's best for our country.

[AcesFull]

IMO, McCain is a RINO and if nominated he will get hammered in the general election, when people will have a chance to vote for a real Democrat. McCain's message is a pessimistic one that says to me that America's best days are behind us. McCain's strongest support comes from Democrats and independents and his support among conservatives is lukewarm at best.

 

McCain is a pro-life Democrat who likes the attention that the media gives to "maverick" Republicans. Apparently Republicans who support McCain's campaign learned no lessons from Bob Dole's campaign. Dole was no conservative either, but he did not embarrass his own party the way that McCain has. Conservatives stayed home in droves when Dole ran and it will be worse if McCain is the Republican candidate. Even more importantly, the conservative base will not expend the same effort campaigning for McCain as they will for a more conservative candidate.

 

I will hold my nose and vote for McCain if necessary, but I will certainly understand if other conservatives decide to cast a protest vote for one of their own running for a third party.

[leatherneck]

IMO, McCain is a RINO and if nominated he will get hammered in the general election, when people will have a chance to vote for a real Democrat. McCain's message is a pessimistic one that says to me that America's best days are behind us. McCain's strongest support comes from Democrats and independents and his support among conservatives is lukewarm at best.

 

McCain is a pro-life Democrat who likes the attention that the media gives to "maverick" Republicans. Apparently Republicans who support McCain's campaign learned no lessons from Bob Dole's campaign. Dole was no conservative either, but he did not embarrass his own party the way that McCain has. Conservatives stayed home in droves when Dole ran and it will be worse if McCain is the Republican candidate. Even more importantly, the conservative base will not expend the same effort campaigning for McCain as they will for a more conservative candidate.

I will hold my nose and vote for McCain if necessary, but I will certainly understand if other conservatives decide to cast a protest vote for one of their own running for a third party.

 

 

Then those conservatives will be directly responsible for the election of a person that is even more to the left, maybe far to the left, than McCain is. You may be right about McCain being un electable. Personally I think he is the only R that is electable. The mood of the country is far, far different than when Dole ran. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the country doesn't want a far right Republican; they don't want to see another Rove advising the President. And I don't think they want a far left D winning it either; but at this point given the choice between a far right and a far left, they'll go to the far left due to the dissatisfaction (fair or unfair) with Bush.

[leatherneck]

In post no. 10 I referenced a study on the Climate Stewardship Act but omitted the link. Here it is: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/FTPROOT/service/sroiaf(2003)02.pdf. Its not something to try and get through on a five minute break.

[AcesFull]

Then those conservatives will be directly responsible for the election of a person that is even more to the left, maybe far to the left, than McCain is. You may be right about McCain being un electable. Personally I think he is the only R that is electable. The mood of the country is far, far different than when Dole ran. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the country doesn't want a far right Republican; they don't want to see another Rove advising the President. And I don't think they want a far left D winning it either; but at this point given the choice between a far right and a far left, they'll go to the far left due to the dissatisfaction (fair or unfair) with Bush.

Conservatives will not be the people responsible for nominating McCain if it happens. The party hacks who agree to rules allowing Democrats and independents vote in Republican primaries will be to blame. I believe that McCain lost among Republicans in Michigan by about a 2 to 1 margin. Republicans should be picking the Republican nominee.

 

McCain is a mean old man who has betrayed conservative ideals on a consistent basis for free TV air time. When the media takes the gloves off to support Hillary or Obama, McCain will snap. McCain-Feingold, McCain-Kennedy, Keating Five, voted against Bush tax cuts, Gang of Fourteen, believes in global warming mitigation, etc. Aside from being pro-life and supporting the Iraq War, McCain has little in common with mainstream Republicans and mainstream Republicans are conservative.

[leatherneck]

Conservatives will not be the people responsible for nominating McCain if it happens. The party hacks who agree to rules allowing Democrats and independents vote in Republican primaries will be to blame. I believe that McCain lost among Republicans in Michigan by about a 2 to 1 margin. Republicans should be picking the Republican nominee.

 

McCain is a mean old man who has betrayed conservative ideals on a consistent basis for free TV air time. When the media takes the gloves off to support Hillary or Obama, McCain will snap. McCain-Feingold, McCain-Kennedy, Keating Five, voted against Bush tax cuts, Gang of Fourteen, believes in global warming mitigation, etc. Aside from being pro-life and supporting the Iraq War, McCain has little in common with mainstream Republicans and mainstream Republicans are conservative.

 

 

I guess I'm not a mainstream Republican by your standards. Funny, I've always considered myself one as I wrote checks to the RNC and Republican candidates; as I've walked streets for Bunning, McConnell, etc. And I think I've addressed the list of items that you've raised. McCain wants and has wanted to reduce taxes notwithstanding the misleading statements that he opposed the two Bush tax cuts. Seemed he had a very Republican based reason for wanting to do so: not allowing the budget to get worse. The Keating 5 issue was much ado about nothing and the investigator wanted McCain dismissed from the investigation. I guess you've forgotten my post on that issue and the proof behind my assertion. Gang of 14 was an effort to prevent the nuclear option from happening. Perhaps you are one that feels that compromise is never necessary and probably thought the budget impasse in Fletcher's first year was a good thing. I thought it was stupid, partisan politics on both sides.

 

McCain may be a mean old man; then again, I've never met him and don't make personality judgments based on TV spots. I also don't have the insight to know that he'll snap when the media takes the gloves off. I am impressed that you have that insight however. McCain lost the Michigan primary because he had the audacity to tell the truth: that the Michigan automotive economy will not recover to the level it was before little automakers like Toyota, Honda and Hundai came along. The fact that Romney was from the state and his father was a past Governor might have had something to do with the Republican vote there, don't you think?

 

To you, I like McCain, am some type of Republican that has betrayed conservative values. That's generally a new one for me. I've actually been accused of being to the right of Attila the Hun in the past. I am very pro business; very much against governmental interference in our lives but recognizes that the best interest of the country trumps individual rights (I'm pro Patriot Act); in favor of low taxes as a way to stimulate the economy; against the very concept of progressive income taxes and against the estate tax totally (as I don't think the wealthy should have a legal obligation to pay more, a moral duty perhaps, but definitely not a legal duty); against entitlement programs totally as I feel the more one relies on the govt the less they have to rely on themselves and their family which encourages the breakdown of families in America; definitely pro military; am pro life; thinks that a lot of environmentalists are over the top (but doesn't think we can blindly abuse the environment); and has some problems with the global warming sky is falling philosophy but would look at climate control measures on a cost/benefit basis. I'd say those positions makes me pretty conservative:D