Have you ever heard of "assumption of the risk"? The illegals would obviously know that they were in real danger if they tried to break the law by entering this country. If they still choose to do so, they are assuming the risk. So be it. They have been forewarned. The "outcome" would self-determined and be self-inflicted. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would have a problem with this approach. The illegals can stay home, obey the law, and stay healthy.

I wonder what all of our immigrant forefathers would think of the idea?

Perhaps I am not thinking economically.

 

Perhaps I am thinking of a family, whose students I have taught, that came across the boarder 16 years ago. Dad carried the three year old, Mom carried the two year old. The five year old had to run on his own. He (the five year old) remembers being shot at and trying to stay between each of his parents (holding his younger brothers) while his older sisters ran behind.

 

Perhaps I am thinking of him as he sat in a classroom and learned English. Perhaps I am thinking of him as he graduated high school with honors, one of the smartest and kindest people that I have ever me. Perhaps I am thinking of him as he made the deans list last semester (and every semester) as an engineering student. Perhaps I am thinking of his parents that wanted a better life for their family.

 

Perhaps I don't equate peoples lives with money.

 

 

Or you hold it too dear.

Perhaps I am not thinking economically.

 

Perhaps I am thinking of a family, whose students I have taught, that came across the boarder 16 years ago. Dad carried the three year old, Mom carried the two year old. The five year old had to run on his own. He (the five year old) remembers being shot at and trying to stay between each of his parents (holding his younger brothers) while his older sisters ran behind.

 

Perhaps I am thinking of him as he sat in a classroom and learned English. Perhaps I am thinking of him as he graduated high school with honors, one of the smartest and kindest people that I have ever me. Perhaps I am thinking of him as he made the deans list last semester (and every semester) as an engineering student. Perhaps I am thinking of his parents that wanted a better life for their family.

 

Perhaps I don't equate peoples lives with money.

Perhaps they could have entered the country legally.

I wonder what all of our immigrant forefathers would think of the idea?

 

 

I am sure they would think of it in much the same vein as they thought of pushing the Native Americans off their land and seizing it.

 

As much of an idealistic bent we as Americans like to have we need to acknowledge our own sins. At the same time we need to stop deifying our founders they were people, not saints not gods. They were of an age where they were far more intolerant than we today are. I do not think that “invoking” our forefathers on this matter is really pertinent.

 

 

I am not going to go into my ideals on this much further as most people will find me "morally reprehensible" when it comes to international politics. Domestically I am as kind hearted as can be, but the realm of the international is one of chaos, competing ideas, contrasting societal values, priorities and warring religious practices.

 

Understand this though: The taking of life is never my first choice as it is a complete waste of a useful resource. If it has been determined that it is indeed the best and most viable option I don't believe holding back to be an option.

 

PLEASE NOTE THAT MY SUGGESTION WAS NOT ONE MEANT TO BE TAKEN AS THE CURRENT SOLUTION. MY SUGGESTION WAS MEANT AS SOMETHING TO RESORT TO IF NOTHING ELSE WORKS.

 

That said I am Maciavellian when it comes to my politics.

Since people are neatly ignoring this part of the original post, let me rehash it for you.

 

That is not something I think needs to be done, but if people want it stopped; minefields would be more cost effective than training new border patrol.

 

As far as I am concerned, this isn't as big a deal as people many people make of it.

I am sure they would think of it in much the same vein as they thought of pushing the Native Americans off their land and seizing it.

 

You are right. I guess we are all descendents of illegal immigrants. Except for the Native American blood in some of us.

 

I agree that they best method would be to pursue the correct legal paths for entry. Could someone fill me in on how many Mexican immigrants we legally allow into the country each year? What is the process? If you are dirt poor, do you stand a chance? I really don't know the answers, but would like to.

 

From what I have witnessed, I think that in many cases, people will lump them all together - legals or illegals - we don't want "them" here because they are different. We fear different.

It wouldn't necessarily blow them up, maiming could occur as well.

 

:laugh: Very good.

You are right. I guess we are all descendents of illegal immigrants. Except for the Native American blood in some of us.

 

I agree that they best method would be to pursue the correct legal paths for entry. Could someone fill me in on how many Mexican immigrants we legally allow into the country each year? What is the process? If you are dirt poor, do you stand a chance? I really don't know the answers, but would like to.

 

From what I have witnessed, I think that in many cases, people will lump them all together - legals or illegals - we don't want "them" here because they are different. We fear different.

 

 

The one universal law throughout human history that we also like to forget, by what right did we do this? By right of arms.

 

You were throwing the forefathers out there as a means of justifying the "how could we do this to innocent people just wanting to better their lives" theme. I was merely pointing out to you that we already did it even during the era of our forefathers. My point is that we have used force before to take our land from the Native Americans and Mexicans, why the qualms now?

 

If the Mexicans came here and conquered us via military force, then by all means they can take what they want. Until that occurs I would prefer they use legal means to get here.

 

Most of the west belongs to the U.S. now, was once Mexico. Why does it belong to us now? Use of force. We took the land from the Native Americans. Was how we did it right from a Judeo-Christian standpoint? In all likelihood no.

The Saxons, Angles and Jutes conquered and assimilated the Celts of England. Force, raw naked force is the moving power of human history.

 

Is that ideal? From a humanist perspecitve, it is horrendous. Sadly, it is how it has been and in my opinion how it always will be.

 

As long as someone comes here legally I don't care. Even if the come here illegally I am really not bothered. You seem to forget the point I made in my INITIAL STATEMENT about how it would be a last resort. I posted a utilitarian way of stemming the tide and I was lambasted for it. Everyone likes to cloak their intents in "moral high ground" as much as possible, not me. If you want a blunt answer about something involving international politics, I will give it.

 

See post #21. Read it, hand write it, copy it, make signs of it. Please just remember that! There are companies that can make limited run T-shirts of it if need be.

From what I have witnessed, I think that in many cases, people will lump them all together - legals or illegals - we don't want "them" here because they are different. We fear different.

 

I don't think the people posting in this thread are lumping these people together, or not wanting immigrants to enter the USA. I know that I do not feel this way. I only want them to enter legally. Mostly for security, and so we can tract them and their intentions. I know immigrants, blacks, whites, yellows, browns, and reds I do not fear them nor do I dislike them, but they came here (or their parents, or grandparents) legally.

 

Things changed on September 11, 2001. We can not have open borders any more. Many people come here for a better life for them and for their family. I want that to, but I do not want to endanger my family by letting criminals or terrorist in to our country. Feel free to enter the USA, just do it legally.

I get your point. I don't need to read it, write it, copy it, make signs of it, zerox it, or have it put up in lights.

 

Maybe you missed my point given in the same example. We are a country of the descendents of immigrants. Some fought for their right and took the land, some showed up on a boat at Ellis Island and did not have a gun in their hand. Unfortunately our country does not look the same now upon an immigrant that wants a better life for his family as they did a century or so ago.

 

I am not "taking the moral high ground". That is just where I am at - it is not cloaked in anything. I did not intend to "lambast" your post, as it was merely hyperbole, I suppose. I just couldn't even imagine coming up with anything like that. I guess it just comes from the life experiences that I have had.

I get your point. I don't need to read it, write it, copy it, make signs of it, zerox it, or have it put up in lights.

 

Maybe you missed my point given in the same example. We are a country of the descendents of immigrants. Some fought for their right and took the land, some showed up on a boat at Ellis Island and did not have a gun in their hand. Unfortunately our country does not look the same now upon an immigrant that wants a better life for his family as they did a century or so ago.

 

I am not "taking the moral high ground". That is just where I am at - it is not cloaked in anything. I did not intend to "lambast" your post, as it was merely hyperbole, I suppose. I just couldn't even imagine coming up with anything like that. I guess it just comes from the life experiences that I have had.

 

Using the example of Ellis Island however indicates a process of some sort. A type of legitmacy, dare I say it, legality. My family came to the states from Central Europe, through Ellis Island. They came here legally, sans firearms.

 

If someone wants a better life in the states I am behind them 100% if they get here in the proper manner.

Again, seriously, does anyone know how many Mexicans that we grant legal status for each year? What is the process? How difficult is is for a poor family to do this?

Using the example of Ellis Island however indicates a process of some sort. A type of legitmacy, dare I say it, legality. My family came to the states from Central Europe, through Ellis Island. They came here legally, sans firearms.

 

Unless my history recollection fails me, most showed up unannounced at Ellis, were met by officials, who wrote down their names (sometimes incorrectly), deloused them and sent them on their way.

 

It was here that they first saw these words: "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! "

Again, seriously, does anyone know how many Mexicans that we grant legal status for each year? What is the process? How difficult is is for a poor family to do this?

 

In all honesty, the government does not know. We granted many student visas to people who never entered college if you count them as illegal that adds to the number. The truth is the government does not know how many illegal immigrants are here. However, I do not know about how many people came here under requests for residency. That would be the only true number of legal immigrants.