I am with you at the point of it does fall to us as Christians to point sin. Is it a major responsibility. Nope. Does it fall as a responsibility? Yes.

 

I would counter that pointing out sin in one's life works best with someone that we have a friendship with and respect rather than someone we don't know. Absolutely, we should be developing friendship with people and pointing out the sin in their AND OUR lives while still loving them.

 

Again, I'm not totally against what ace has said. I just don't think support the idea of leaving anything out. That doesn't mean it should be the focal point of what we talk about. It shouldn't. But, it shouldn't be left out completely either. That's pretty much all I'm saying.

 

All my posts are from the perspective of talking to fellow believers, or churchgoers. A person going to church isn't necessarily saved. But, they have to have some interest or they probably wouldn't be coming. These are people that we have a great chance of reaching.

 

It's not the job of the church to go out and police homosexuality (or whatever sin we're talking about), but within the church, I think there is a responsibility to address all manner of sin at some point or other. Again, it shouldn't be a focal point, but it should be mentioned. These "evangelicals" that parade around bashing gays and others aren't going to accomplish much, if anything...they're probably doing more damage than good as a matter of fact. If the church is to make any significant change, then it will have to start at the ground level with regular people in regular churches doing the work that Christ intended...it's not going to trickle down from some rant by Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell.

 

That said, I have seen plenty of Christians on TV that represent well. They don't condone homosexuality, but they don't go on a tirade about it either. They simply state that it is wrong because the Bible we believe in tells us it is.

i think Frances' point is this:

 

If I read the Bible and I get from it one thing

 

then

 

You read the Bible and get from it something different

 

Who decides which one of us is correct?

 

If there is not an earthly authority to decipher the truth, then it boils down to the truth as understood by "me" through Christ's revelation.

 

It is therefore purely situational.

 

This is a fair summation of one part of my question, Acemona.

 

Once that aspect has been asked and answered, then it must be expanded to include other organized religions, and each of their sects.

 

When that larger problem has been resolved, then we can move on to address the other belief systems that exist (i.e. agnosticism, atheism).

 

After all of that has been put to rest, then we reach the point of application of what has been resolved. In essence, once we have defined who the arbiter is, and the arbiter has chosen the "right" from the "wrong", it's all downhill from there. All we have to do then, is let the final arbiter tell us what is right and what is wrong, and then enact our laws and live our lives accordingly.

 

Remember, this is intended to address Hearsay's point about the "truth is what you make of it" issue.

 

No small feat, is it?

 

If it were an easy question to answer, it would have moved from the realm of philosophy long ago.

 

 

Frances

Again, I'm not totally against what ace has said. I just don't think support the idea of leaving anything out. That doesn't mean it should be the focal point of what we talk about. It shouldn't. But, it shouldn't be left out completely either. That's pretty much all I'm saying.

 

All my posts are from the perspective of talking to fellow believers, or churchgoers. A person going to church isn't necessarily saved. But, they have to have some interest or they probably wouldn't be coming. These are people that we have a great chance of reaching.

 

It's not the job of the church to go out and police homosexuality (or whatever sin we're talking about), but within the church, I think there is a responsibility to address all manner of sin at some point or other. Again, it shouldn't be a focal point, but it should be mentioned. These "evangelicals" that parade around bashing gays and others aren't going to accomplish much, if anything...they're probably doing more damage than good as a matter of fact. If the church is to make any significant change, then it will have to start at the ground level with regular people in regular churches doing the work that Christ intended...it's not going to trickle down from some rant by Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell.

 

That said, I have seen plenty of Christians on TV that represent well. They don't condone homosexuality, but they don't go on a tirade about it either. They simply state that it is wrong because the Bible we believe in tells us it is.

The bolded is excellent.

Was reading through some Scripture and came upon a couple of things that I thought was revelent to the discussion that has been in here.

 

First Matthew 7:5...

Judging Others

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

 

 

The first part of the Scripture I bolded because it is quoted a lot to indicate to people that we should not judge. But at the end of that Scripture it indicates that judging can occur when you have examined yourself and taking care of the sins in your life. I have italics it.

 

I point out that it tells us to take the SPECIFIC sin out of our lives AND THEN WE can see clearly to tell others about sin.

Was reading through some Scripture and came upon a couple of things that I thought was revelent to the discussion that has been in here.

 

First Matthew 7:5...

Judging Others

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

 

 

The first part of the Scripture I bolded because it is quoted a lot to indicate to people that we should not judge. But at the end of that Scripture it indicates that judging can occur when you have examined yourself and taking care of the sins in your life. I have italics it.

 

I point out that it tells us to take the SPECIFIC sin out of our lives AND THEN WE can see clearly to tell others about sin.

 

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - Not a specific sin, but sin in general.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - Not a specific sin, but sin in general.

So you disregard what is said in the first Scripture because you chose to believe it rather than the others? Or how do you balance the two to come to your view?

 

My view is that we have to figure out what the balance of the two is.

 

Appears to me that God will not stop until ALL have been found.

Your response to Jesus' sermon on the mount where some of his disciples said that what he asked was too hard and they left him. Not talking the 12 but the other disciples that followed him.

No, what I think is that even with the first scripture we are not to judge until we have removed all sin from our life - that will never happen, therefore we should never judge.

 

Besides that, when the lord taught us to pray he said that we should forgive those who sin against us.

 

You know, when someone sins against God it seems to me that we should let that be between them an God - not us. We are never to convict (as I mentioned before only the HOLY SPIRIT does that) - we are simply to show God's love. Once we can get someone started in a relationship with God, then God can work to help them become more like Jesus and we can help through guided discipleship. We draw no one to God by pointing out their sins. We draw them to God by showing God's love. I think it is that simple.

 

If I have a Christian brother (someone with whom I have a relationship) and I see that he is abusive to his wife, then I could probably have a talk with him about that "SIN" and I can rail against domestic abuse in general - but I don't know that I should approach people I don't know and tell them to help their wife around the house more and not be so demeaning to her.

No, what I think is that even with the first scripture we are not to judge until we have removed all sin from our life - that will never happen, therefore we should never judge.

 

Besides that, when the lord taught us to pray he said that we should forgive those who sin against us.

 

You know, when someone sins against God it seems to me that we should let that be between them an God - not us. We are never to convict (as I mentioned before only the HOLY SPIRIT does that) - we are simply to show God's love. Once we can get someone started in a relationship with God, then God can work to help them become more like Jesus and we can help through guided discipleship. We draw no one to God by pointing out their sins. We draw them to God by showing God's love. I think it is that simple.

 

If I have a Christian brother (someone with whom I have a relationship) and I see that he is abusive to his wife, then I could probably have a talk with him about that "SIN" and I can rail against domestic abuse in general - but I don't know that I should approach people I don't know and tell them to help their wife around the house more and not be so demeaning to her.

I can agree with much of what you said. And to clarify, he said forgive them as we expect to be forgiven.

 

And yes, we should love everyone as Jesus loved them. And part of that love that Jesus showed them was calling them on their behavior when their behavior was wrong. Jesus calling Peter, "Satan" would be a good example.

 

I would agree that you need a relationship to BEST effect someone that is doing something they should not. I think that is modeled all the time in the NT with how mentoring and close relationships helped strengthen each other. I think of Paul calling Peter out when Peter was allowing himself to be influenced by outside agents.

 

What I don't think that means is that I have to vote for issues or people that stand against my faith, just to let them feel that I don't approve of their lifestyle. For example, I should not be railing against sexual immorality. But if a candidate wants to zone an area in my community that would allow strip clubs, I think I have every right as a Christian to try and speak against it.

Good thread you got going here.:thumb:

I can agree with much of what you said. And to clarify, he said forgive them as we expect to be forgiven.

 

And yes, we should love everyone as Jesus loved them. And part of that love that Jesus showed them was calling them on their behavior when their behavior was wrong. Jesus calling Peter, "Satan" would be a good example.

 

I would agree that you need a relationship to BEST effect someone that is doing something they should not. I think that is modeled all the time in the NT with how mentoring and close relationships helped strengthen each other. I think of Paul calling Peter out when Peter was allowing himself to be influenced by outside agents.

 

What I don't think that means is that I have to vote for issues or people that stand against my faith, just to let them feel that I don't approve of their lifestyle. For example, I should not be railing against sexual immorality. But if a candidate wants to zone an area in my community that would allow strip clubs, I think I have every right as a Christian to try and speak against it.

 

I agree whole heartedly. And just so that I am not completely hypocritical, I do think that I am called to speak out against the "sin" of injustice.

 

If you recall - or you may not - I first started this post right after the post about Elton John and his rant on organized religion. While I know there is specific scripture dealing with homosexuality (although I think there was a cultural issue here) - there are more scriptures dealing with how we treat the poor and less fortunate. I am just disappointed that more preachers don't preach about injustice than preach about the fires of hell.

 

When I go to church on Sunday I don't need my pastor telling me how much I am sinning, I know that - what I need is for him/her to tell me that there are people hurting in the world and that I have responsibility to do something about - even if those people who are hurting are people who are homosexual or people who had an abortion - or people who had a baby out of wedlock. I don't need to tell them they are condemned because of their sin and my preacher doesn't either. What needs to happen is someone to help them if they are hurting or hungry or poor - and sometimes that someone needs to be the government and sometimes it needs to be me railing against the government that upholds policies that allow these people to suffer.

 

I think my most important responsibilty is to express God's Unconditional Love to everybody.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - Not a specific sin, but sin in general.

John 8

1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

 

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

 

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

 

11"No one, sir," she said.

"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

 

One fundamental point needs to be pointed out in the Scripture you quote here.....

 

In casting stones, the crowd was basically casting an ETERNAL judgement. As they stoned the young lady, then she would lose her life and any chance of asking God for forgiveness and repentance was gone.

 

Now, if today's Christians were taking a stand against sexual immorality which included an equilivant of stoning, taking of their lives and committing an eternal judgement, than I agree wholeheartedly that cannot be allowed to happen.

 

But making a stand against a sinful behavior is different than making an eternal judgement. Telling someone (especially someone that you already are close to and have a strong relationship with) that they need to examine a sinful act that they continue in their lives, seems on line with what Jesus said and I bolded.

I agree whole heartedly. And just so that I am not completely hypocritical, I do think that I am called to speak out against the "sin" of injustice.

 

If you recall - or you may not - I first started this post right after the post about Elton John and his rant on organized religion. While I know there is specific scripture dealing with homosexuality (although I think there was a cultural issue here) - there are more scriptures dealing with how we treat the poor and less fortunate. I am just disappointed that more preachers don't preach about injustice than preach about the fires of hell.

 

When I go to church on Sunday I don't need my pastor telling me how much I am sinning, I know that - what I need is for him/her to tell me that there are people hurting in the world and that I have responsibility to do something about - even if those people who are hurting are people who are homosexual or people who had an abortion - or people who had a baby out of wedlock. I don't need to tell them they are condemned because of their sin and my preacher doesn't either. What needs to happen is someone to help them if they are hurting or hungry or poor - and sometimes that someone needs to be the government and sometimes it needs to be me railing against the government that upholds policies that allow these people to suffer.

 

I think my most important responsibilty is to express God's Unconditional Love to everybody.

I agree with what you have said here and think the church, calling out all denominations here, have washed their hands too much in helping people. At times, it seems churches are more worried about numbers in a door rather than having those numbers be the type of Christians we are called to be.

 

My caution is the desire to replace the church with the government. Yes, the government should do things. My point is that Christ did not call the government to do those things but called the church to do. People should look for the church first to take care of things and not the government.

 

People should see the church as the organization to solve issues and concerns and problems in their lives. A place to go to for help, guidance and comfort.

I agree with what you have said here and think the church, calling out all denominations here, have washed their hands too much in helping people. At times, it seems churches are more worried about numbers in a door rather than having those numbers be the type of Christians we are called to be.

 

My caution is the desire to replace the church with the government. Yes, the government should do things. My point is that Christ did not call the government to do those things but called the church to do. People should look for the church first to take care of things and not the government.

 

People should see the church as the organization to solve issues and concerns and problems in their lives. A place to go to for help, guidance and comfort.

 

I understand your fear of replacing the church with the government, but the church cannot raise the minimum wage, nor can it provide universal health care for children. And while it can do a great deal to offset the effects of poverty it can do very little to effect the causes of that poverty.

I understand your fear of replacing the church with the government, but the church cannot raise the minimum wage, nor can it provide universal health care for children. And while it can do a great deal to offset the effects of poverty it can do very little to effect the causes of that poverty.

You are right on target and the church should be the force behind driving the government to address poverty while they are addressing the effects of poverty. My view is that Jesus said that even hell cannot overcome His church and my confidence is in the church and what it CAN do when it is of the right mindset. He did not say that about government and I don't have as much faith in it.

 

I would also include other "conservative issues" to your povery and health care issues. I am sure we all can guess the first one I would include.