On Saturday, Ludlow played a double header at EKU against Model and Jackson City...

A situation came up that I just gotta get an answer to for my own sanity... Lol! I hate not knowing the rules.

In game one, Evan Slone was the starting pitcher for Ludlow... I heard him, before the game, ask the umpire: "If I get a situation with a runner on first and third, can I fake to third and throw to first for a pickoff?"

The ump said, "no, that's now an illegal move. It's a balk".

 

Ok, no incidents at all in game one.

However, in game two:

Ludlow is batting... Slone is on first and Eads is on third.

The pitcher fakes to third and throws to first. Now, Slone, having already discussed it with the ump thinks it's a balk... So he immediately runs for second on the pitcher's move to third.

They threw to first and to second... Slone avoids tag. They throw home and Eads avoids the tag. Both runners were safe and the outcome was the same as if a balk had been called, but it wasn't called.

Jackson City made a mild argument that Eads was out at home, but no coaches really argued the balk call one way or the other much that I could tell.

So, short version.... Outcome was the same either way, but "what's the rule?".... Is that a legal move this year or not?

Btw, as far as I know... The pitcher was on the rubber when he made the move.

Anyone know for sure?

Legal as long as pitcher "gains ground" with his fake to third. He can't just raise his leg up the air and fake to third. He has to take a step i.e. gain ground.

 

It's illegal now in MLB.

Legal as long as pitcher "gains ground" with his fake to third. He can't just raise his leg up the air and fake to third. He has to take a step i.e. gain ground.

 

It's illegal now in MLB.

 

Thanks @Clyde... Was driving me nuts, cause I knew it was illegal in mlb...

Not only legal, but often strategic. Some HS coaches teach the runner on 1B to take off on lift of front foot. They figure the odds of many HS teams executing a run down properly is pretty low so they are likely to score a run and fairly likely to not even give up an out if the P does the 3rd to 1st move. If P does go home, they're probably taking 2B without a throw for the same reason.

 

At the very highest levels, this doesn't hold true but I've seen it a ton over the years.

Not only legal, but often strategic. Some HS coaches teach the runner on 1B to take off on lift of front foot. They figure the odds of many HS teams executing a run down properly is pretty low so they are likely to score a run and fairly likely to not even give up an out if the P does the 3rd to 1st move. If P does go home, they're probably taking 2B without a throw for the same reason.

 

At the very highest levels, this doesn't hold true but I've seen it a ton over the years.

 

I've been away from the diamond for a long while and I have a question.

 

Is there a rule preventing pitchers from faking to third, and if the runner has taken off, going directly to second? If not, in most cases, the defensive dugout is yelling going as soon as the runner makes his move, and getting the ball to second without engaging in a rundown would be, statistically speaking, the right play.

 

Call me conservative, but I just don't see much value in running down a trailing runner, or any runner for that matter.

Not only legal, but often strategic. Some HS coaches teach the runner on 1B to take off on lift of front foot. They figure the odds of many HS teams executing a run down properly is pretty low so they are likely to score a run and fairly likely to not even give up an out if the P does the 3rd to 1st move. If P does go home, they're probably taking 2B without a throw for the same reason.

 

At the very highest levels, this doesn't hold true but I've seen it a ton over the years.

 

I guess the only part that still doesn't make sense... Why did the ump in game one tell the kid it was an illegal move?

Maybe he didn't quite understand what the kid was talking about , that's all I can figure.

I've been away from the diamond for a long while and I have a question.

 

Is there a rule preventing pitchers from faking to third, and if the runner has taken off, going directly to second? If not, in most cases, the defensive dugout is yelling going as soon as the runner makes his move, and getting the ball to second without engaging in a rundown would be, statistically speaking, the right play.

 

Call me conservative, but I just don't see much value in running down a trailing runner, or any runner for that matter.

I'm pretty sure it is illegal to throw to second... I don't think you can throw to an "unoccupied" base initially.

 

You gotta go to first and the first baseman can throw to second... At least that's my understanding and I can't swear to it.

I'm pretty sure it is illegal to throw to second... I don't think you can throw to an "unoccupied" base initially.

 

You gotta go to first and the first baseman can throw to second... At least that's my understanding and I can't swear to it.

 

While touching the rubber, the pitcher cannot throw to or fake a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play. So in the case you describe, the pitcher can throw directly to second since an attempt is being made to put out the runner coming from first.

There's more to that though, the pitcher had to "see" the runner advancing to throw to an unoccupied base, he can't just fake to 3rd then blindly wheel and throw to second.

There's more to that though, the pitcher had to "see" the runner advancing to throw to an unoccupied base, he can't just fake to 3rd then blindly wheel and throw to second.

 

Why else would he throw to second?? How does an umpire determine if he "saw" there was going to be a play?? What about the coach, bench or first basemen are yelling "second!!". Does that count??

Just telling what the rule says, as in so many things, umpires judgement.

Just telling what the rule says, as in so many things, umpires judgement.

 

Except the rule doesn't state what you are saying it does. Unless I'm reading this wrong or looking at the wrong rule (which is possible), there is no mention of the pitcher being required to "see" that the runner is moving before throwing to an unoccupied base.

 

This is from the NFHS Baseball Rulebook. Rule 6, Article 4b

 

ART. 4 . . . Balk. If there is a runner or runners, any of the following acts by a pitcher while he is

touching the pitcher’s plate is a balk:

 

b. failing to step with the non-pivot foot directly toward a base (occupied or unoccupied)

when throwing or feinting there in an attempt to put out, or drive back a runner; or throwing

or feinting to any unoccupied base when it is not an attempt to put out or drive back a runner

 

The only requirement is that the pitcher step directly towards the base he is feinting/throwing to. And if the pitcher has legally stepped off the rubber, he can basically do whatever he wants.

Just saw this play Wednesday evening in a very big D1 college game, and wasn't called a balk. I thought college was one of the first levels to outlaw this play.

Just saw this play Wednesday evening in a very big D1 college game, and wasn't called a balk. I thought college was one of the first levels to outlaw this play.

 

I believe only MLB has made this move illegal.

1) Pitcher fakes to third

2) Runner on first takes off to second

3) Pitcher throw to second

 

That is legal if the pitcher disengages the rubber after his fake to third. At that point he becomes a fielder and cannot be called for a balk.

@Clyde?