acemona

Nor am I pulling out verses that I "like" and ignoring others. However, when you say if it is not in the Bible you don't want it in you, are there things in the Bible that you don't want in you. Isn't easier to say that that I have to confess and ask forgiveness and I will go to heaven than it is to say there are those who will never hear the word of God but might have a chance to go to heaven, based on scripture? Still no response to Matthew 25? You either have to completely dismiss that chapter, or you have to do some real strong interpretation or make some assumptions that simply are not in there. If you throw out logic, as was suggested in another post, and you throw out reasoning, how do you understand what the Bible accurate says? Besides that, why would God give us the power of logic and reasoning if we were not supposed to use it? I make no judgment on your theology, but you certainly did on mine. My father-in-law, a baptist minister and former professor of Preaching and hermenuetics (sp) at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville described theology in this way (paraphrased): I use my experience, common sense, logic and reasoning to allow the Holy Spirit to guide me in my reading and understanding of the scripture to form a belief about the role of God and Jesus in my life. Mine too has changed dramatically over the years. I grew up in a fundamentalist baptist church in SouthEastern Kentucky that was all about condemnation and ways to stay out of hell. I have come now to believe that Christianity is about love and showing God's grace to those around me.

You dismiss my reading of the scripture and say that my theology is reckless, yet your reading is right on - why can't I simply say that you designing your theology to meet your needs is wrong. How do you just dismiss John 3:16 - the Verse that almost everyone knows? As to good works being simply that . . . Jesus also says that good fruit cannot come from a bad tree, nor bad fruit come from a good tree. Was Jesus wrong? I am not talking about good works 'saving' anybody, it is not about "saving" at all, it is about drawing closer to God. You say that word like it is a one time event and it is over. I would say that it is a life-long process. Any response to Matthew 25?, or the Parable of the Lost Sheep?

Both of the above posts make assumptions about my theology that simply are not true. I don't believe in a physical place called hell - I do believe in separation from God - which is what sin does. I seek God b/c that is what I am designed to do and so that I 'can have Life and have it more abundantly' and so that others can see God through me and so that I can do God's work on earth (hands and feet), and so that I can live in a loving relationship to him. Not b/c it will save me from going to hell. I hope that my kids obey me b/c they love me and not b/c they are simply afraid of my punishment. I didn't say God would find you regardless of what you can do, I said God could find you even if you have never heard the Gospel - Thomas Merton, the great modern theologian is the one who talks about the search for God being pleasing to God. All of Jesus words point toward enlarging the Kingdom. It was the pharisees and the saducees who talked about rules . . . Matthew 18:14 (parable of the lost sheep) In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost. On the one hand you say that I can't do anything to 'earn' my way to heaven, then on the other hand you say that have to Confess and Ask. Are those not ways of earning? Which is it? Besides, your equation flies in the face of John 3:16 which says "whosover believes." Matthew 25 does not even talk about believing at all, but talks about the treatment of others. Jesus greatest commandment says to love God and Love other, nothing about confessing and asking. There is an entire parable about the 'merciful servant'. God is absolutely not fair HIS grace falls down on everyone, the deserving and undeserving alike (oh wait, we are all underserving). In Matthew 20 God even asks (20:15) Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own (grace)? Or are you envious because I am generous?" Belfry boy, so you actually believe that there were people living in Africa before Jesus was born who heard the GOSPEL?? There was not even a Gospel then. What about the Babylonians? The Mongols, the Huns, the Qing dynasty? TV does not make it to the Congo and there are plenty of people living now who will never hear the Gospel from a missionary. How do you suppose they come to know God - either of you?

You have also seen them turned away at a Kentucky private school for being Gay. When the message coming from the pulpit is that their life is an abomination they are not accepted in the church. Having someone sit in the pulpit on Sunday does not mean they are accepted.

But they are making a social statement and they ARE more accepting than the church.

According to the people at UK - and this is a loose paraphrase b/c I can't remember all of the definition - Anyone is the responsible for the health and wellbeing of someone living in their house, they can receive health benefits from the university under the domestic partner provision. LBBC, I guess you can make the stretch and say that UK is a part of the government, whey you talk about Jesus not relying on the government, but it is essentially a business and that government is trying to prevent it from offering insurance benefits b/c they are living in "sin".

Actually my point is, if we can enlarge the group that has access to health insurance, at a minimum cost, why would we not? Would Jesus actually say, "you know, I think access to health care, through an insurance system, is good but I just can't see extending it to people who are living in sin." I agree with some posts above - if the legislature votes to deny UK and UL the ability to extend health benefits to domestic partners b/c of sin, then should it not be denied to all who are greedy, slovenly, non-christians . . .

you are correct, I assume as always:D , Zinni was just a critic.

List of Generals Fired: Zinni Shinseki Abizaid Casey Others military leaders asked to "resign" Robert Preston John Carr karen Kwiatkowski Richard Clarke Michael Dugan Foreign Affair Diplomats who resigned b/c Bush would not heed their advice Flynt Leverett Ben Miller Hillary Mann Ann Wright

Let me rephrase my question: The Christians in the Kentucky legislature think they will be doing God's bidding by passing legislation to prevent UK and UofL from providing domestic partner benefits. I just don't see anything Christian about that . . . Wouldn't Jesus want everyone to have health care? Did he withhold water from the woman at the well until she stopped sinning, or did he go ahead and give her the water?

At the university of Louisville the partner would payfor it. Why is that a bad thing?

Would he deny someone the opportunity to get it because they are living in sin? (I do not think homosexuals are living in sin, but for discussions sake I have couched the question in these terms)

I would never tell someone that they can make it to heaven without a relationship with Jesus. That is the way. But I don't believe a relationship comes from simply making a public confession. You pointed that out in one of your scriptures. I do think that Jesus can find people without them knowing it - the Asian Holy Man - and that there are provisions for those who do not hear the word. I do believe it is possible to reject Jesus here and face the threat of eternity out of the presence of God. I think this is hard to do when someone is introduced to the Loving God of the New Testament and not the god painted by Falwell and Robertson. I like to hold out hope that even then, after rejection and death, God would be the waiting father hoping for YOU (general you) to turn back to Him.

It seems I have moved my point, only b/c it is so fluid and not black and white. I certianly believe that b/c of Jesus I can have a relationship with God now and for eternity. I am just not definite in how that occurs. I have no answers, only questions, but I think God loves me anyway.

And have you seen their tax system? :thumb:

My point exactly - it is not about saying that you believe, or holding the right theology, it is about doing God's will. Gandhi, therefore, is in heaven - "a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." Matthew 7:18

I still think you have to be real careful with literal interpretation. If you read all of 1 Peter 2:8 you can easily get the impression that those for whom Jesus was a stumbling block were predestined to do so. And that gets us back to the thread topic of Free Will. 1 Peter 2:8 . . . They stumbe because they disobey the message - which is also what they were destined for. (9) But you are a chosen people - If there is a group who was Chosen and a group destined to stumble, where is the free will. 1 John 2:1 Also reads " . . . But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. (2) he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our but also for the sins of the whole world."

Will you then pay for you own police, fire, roads, national defense, K-12 education, post secondary buildings and professors, and all other programs which are way too numerous to mention.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. I Peter 3:18 ff For Christ died for sins once for ALL, the righteous and the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the spirit, (19) through whom also he went and preched to the spirits in Prison (hell) who disobeyed long ago . . .

The thief does present a quandry, however . . . I would equate Falwell and Robertson with the Pharisees and Saducees who make salvation about following the rules and not about grace. I think Gandhi is the furthest thing from that. He did not talk to people about following all the rules, he just lived his life according to Gospel principals. I really think you miss the point in making that analogy. The religious leaders of Jesus day were all about exclusion, while Jesus was about inclusion. Gandhi was also about inclusion. "I am both muslim and hindu (and Christian)"

Anybody on here ever given away the legal limit allowed by the IRS?

I did not mean to imply that you earn your way, I would be more than a day late and a dollar short My point, not so cleary communicated, is that salvation is not about believing the right thing. Even the demons believe that Christ is the Son of God, Salvation is about a relationship that causes me to do the right thing. The story from Tony Campolo that I referred to earlier is about an Asian Holy Man who was approached by a western missionary. The western missionary gave the story of Jesus and all of the Gospels and His saving Grace, and he ended by asking the Holy Man if he would like to come to know Jesus. The Holy Man replied - I have known Him all of my life, you have just now given Him a name. i agree that 99% of Americans know ABOUT Jesus, but they only know the Jesus portrayed by the Westboro Baptist People, or the Jesus portrayed by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who said that 9-11 and Katrina was brought on by God punishing America for its gayness. (They of course said more than that . . .). They also only know the Jesus portrayed by the Kentucky State Legislature who may soon work to deny health benefits to someone because they are Gay. If this is the only Jesus I knew, I might reject it too. Fortunately I have found a Jesus who loves me, despite my sin and shortcomings and would not deny me health benefits because of them. Gandhi even said that he loved Christ, but he didn't think much about some of his followers. I don't know where to draw the line, only God does, but again I find that it would be a very small God who could not find redemption for Gandhi - who may have been one of the most peaceful, loving human beings to have ever walked the earth - and yet a thief and robber who lived potential a life of violence and hatred will be rewarded in heaven b/c at the hour of his death he says, wow - you must be the son of God. I am hopeful that there is room with God for both.

Sure it is, and the more you give away the less you are taxed.

The other thread had been hi-jacked, by me unfortunately so I moved off. Just so I can be clear - hear is my ever emerging theology: Christ is the way for people to get to heaven - People searching for God and trying to do the right thing can find God, even if they have never heard of Jesus Christ - Christ's sacrifice/obedience/service/GRACE is sufficient for ALL even those who will never hear his name or the Gospel. Thomas Merton says that the search for God is pleasing to God, and I cannot accept that someone who does something pleasing to God will go to hell, simply b/c they have not heard someone preach the Bible. I believe that there are those who will reject Christ in this life, but just like the parable of the Waiting Father (prodigal son) Jesus/God will always be ready to accept them, when they are finally compelled through the love of God to turn toward God. Prior to that turning they will have an existence of absence from everything that we associate with God - primarily Faith, Hope, and Love. I think that there are those among us who are close to God/Jesus and don't know that they are. Tony Campolo tells a great story of just such a person in his most recent book. I think God's love is about inclusion, not exclusion and the more conditions we put on getting to heaven the more exclusionary we become and the less like God. I think we spread the Gospel so that people can have Life now and have it more abundantly. The Gospel is not about the way to keep from going to hell, it is about developing a relationship with Christ so that you can live this life in the purpose for which you were designed. I think there are those who would say that they are not saved, and yet they live a life very pleasing to God, and that has to be pleasing to God - does it not? I think they live the Gospel of Matthew 25 - exactly as it is written and in so doing I think that Jesus may find them, even if they don't find Jesus. The more people that experience an ongoing relationship with Jesus, the closer we come to bringing Jesus' Kingdom on earth - Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be Done ON EARTH. I think Salvation is much more about this life than it is about the next one. Study hard the teachings of John and see if he is not in that same boat.

Just so I can be clear - hear is my ever emerging theology: Christ is the way for people to get to heaven - People searching for God and trying to do the right thing can find God, even if they have never heard of Jesus Christ - Christ sacrifice/obedience/service/GRACE is sufficient for ALL even those who will never hear his name or the Gospel. Thomas Merton says that the search for God is pleasing to God, and I cannot accept that someone who does something pleasing to God will go to hell, simply b/c they have not heard someone preach the Bible. I believe that there are those who will reject Christ in this life, but just like the parable of the Waiting Father (prodigal son) Jesus/God will always be ready to accept them, when they are finally compelled through the love of God to turn toward God. Prior to that turning they will have an existence of absence from everything that we associate with God - primarily Faith, Hope, and Love. I think that there are those among us who are close to God/Jesus and don't know that they are. Tony Campolo tells a great story of just such a person in his most recent book. I think God's love is about inclusion, not exclusion and the more conditions we put on getting to heaven the more exclusionary we become and the less like God. I think we spread the Gospel so that people can have Life now and have it more abundantly. The Gospel is not about the way to keep from going to hell, it is about developing a relationship with Christ so that you can live this life in the purpose for which you were designed. I think there are those who would say that they are not saved, and yet they live a life very pleasing to God, and that has to be pleasing to God - does it not? I think they live the Gospel of Matthew 25 - exactly as it is written and in so doing I think that Jesus may find them, even if they don't find Jesus. The more people that experience an ongoing relationship with Jesus, the closer we come to bringing Jesus' Kingdom on earth - Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be Done ON EARTH. I think Salvation is much more about this life than it is about the next one. Study hard the teachings of John and see if he is not in that same boat.