acemona

AMEN :ylsuper: You are probably disappointed that I will be one of the few it goes overwith well.

My goal is to generate discussion so that I can mull new ideas around in my brain. I am a much different Christian now than I was even 10 years ago - I am an "emerging" Christian and I don't want to be stagnant in my thought. I want to see more clearly each day (although according to Paul I will always "see dimly"). I have no desire to change anyone's mind but I think it is always positive to talk about what you see/hear/and believe about the Gospel. I too think it is my job to share Christ's story and to talk about my relationship with him - my tactic may just be a little different. I want people to come to know Christ and love him and respond to him out of this loving relationship not because they are afraid of going to hell. Just like I would never want my adult/enlightened child to respond to me out of fear, but to respond to me out of love. The same is true for my spouse. I want her to do and not do things out of love for me not out of fear of me. I think that is what Christ wants - and American/Western religion of the past 27-30 years has been one of fear and condemnation not a story of love and Grace. The conservative takeover of the SBC and the unholy marriage of Ralph Reed/Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell to the government has skewed the message of Jesus who talks about Blessed are the poor, merciful, the peacemaker, the mournful, the MEEK, the pure in heart, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. The Jesus of Matthew 5:38 ff is not the Jesus put forth by those Christians that the world see everyday. I am much more in line with Jim Wallis at http://www.sojo.net. BTW someone earlier accused me of discounting 2000 years of orthodoxy, not so. My father in law, as I have said before was a professor at Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville before Al Mohler. He was a professor of preaching and has writting several books on the preaching styles of several of the new testament authors, and of Jesus. He preaches of Jesus of love and mercy and forgiveness that he learned about at SBS. The fact is, the Jesus I talk about (of course not exactly all of it) is the Jesus that was taught at SBS throughout its history, until the conservative takeover in the late 70s and early 80s. It was even taught there up into the 90s when all of the old professors were run out of town. That teaching just never made its way to the Sunday School teachers and then to the rest of the Lay People.

I don't think anything specifically contradicts and in 1 Peter, I go back again that he goes to hell and preaches to those who had died earlier. The scripture also says the everyone will be saved "each in his own turn". John 3:17, I come not to condemn the WORLD, but that the WORLD through me might be saved. All kinds of scripture talk about it.

If when I die, and I have not made some effort to seek out God and have only lived a humanistic life I believe that Iwill be separated from God and all that God is (love, peace, joy) that means that my existence will be one of hate, turmoil, sorrow - that can be awful, probably more so than hell itself (at least as we think we know it to be described). My son loves communion (not church stuff, but being around people) when he misbehaves I have two choices, I can spank him, or I can send him to his room (no electronic devices there or anything) - he would prefer the spanking b/c he HATES the separation. Not only that, when he returns from his room we talk about why the separation took place and discuss that it was meant as a redemptive move to restore his right relationship with me and his mother (a most probably his little sister) - but he is not sent there Forever. I believe, that if you REJECT Jesus, the son of God, in this life, that there will be separation from God in the next, however, I simply don't believe - Given the nature of God that has been revealed to me in the New Testament through the life of Jesus - that God will simply cast them away and forget about it, I think God will continue to work for redemption, even in the next life. B/c it is God's will that all will be saved, "in their own turn".

I see no reason to think that any of that is not true, but I don't think I HAVE to believe it in that way for my salvation/relation with God to be valid.

It is not that I defend the breaking of law, but I do not see this as a blight on society as many do. At this point in our history, there are many more positives that come from people crossing the border than there are negatives. Instead of trying to figure out how to take 12 million (some say really over 20 million) people out of the economy and destroying families, why are we not trying to find out how we can fix it without hurting the overall economy. We actually need to let more in to replace the retiring baby boomers. My buddy uses that threat of terrorism, but I am very curious to know how many illegal immigrants have committed an act of terrorism against the United States? It is my understanding that they come to American for a better opportunity - not because they hate our way of life.

LBBC, after re-reading this today, my tone was not intended to be as it sounds here. It sounds snooty and I did not/do not mean for it to. Forgive me.

Why does God's law demand a sin sacrifice? Did God not create his law? God can do anything God wants, how can HE be held beholden to a law?

LBBC is everything you read in the Bible literal. Is it not possible that story is not metaphorical? Does there have to be a person standing there beside Jesus for this to be true. I am tempted all the time, but i don't think "the devil" is walking up beside me - sometime it is my HUMAN nature, or the evil that is around me.

I would say then that our law flies in the face of this quote from Leviticus. Amazing how this conservative Christian board can just ignore the TRUTH. It is right there in black and white. BTW way do we have restrictions on the numbers of people crossing our southern border. Without immigration (both legal and illegal) our population is in decline. We are not replacing the baby boomers in the workforce, and our economy is going to be strained (not to mention the # of people we don't have paying into the SSI). We have low unemployment in this country now (watch neil cavuto on FOX) so the hispanics are not taking jobs away from Americans, they are actually filling in where we don't have the numbers.

I am not putting forth a policy, just stating what Leviticus reports that GOD said.

I KNOW that evil exists, I just don't know that it is personified.

Is this not fun? :dancingpa

that depends on your definition of Satan. I certainly believe that evil will be destroyed.

Isn't Grace ALWAYS needed and doesn't God say "I AM LOVE"?

"When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God." Leviticus 19:33-34

You will really enjoy this . . . I don't believe the Jesus HAD to die. I think it was part of his living life and showing us the example of how it ought to be. He could have called down angels, but chose to live the non-violent life that resulted in his death. I don't think God demanded his blood.

So you agree with the story as I layed it out? WOW. . . so essentially I come to accept Jesus only b/c I am afraid of a wrathful, vengeful God - heckbent on pain and torture. We might as well be worshipping Zeus, not a God that preaches about Love and a radical way of of overcoming the evil of the earth. I have not ever (never) advocated the story you put forth, and will never advocate it. You have misread or misunderstood me all the way through here if the story you put forth is what you believe I have put forth. Please re-read my posts carefully and tell me how you reach the conclusion where I say that God would accept everyone without them EVENTUALLY showing appreciation.

Do you then have more love than God who, according to everyone on this thread, will throw his creations away to be TORTURED FOREVER. Why would God do this. God is all powerful and can do whatever God wants - this sounds like a monster - does it not? See if I have it correct here . . . "I am lonely . . . I think I will create some companions. I don't want them to be robots so I will give them free will so they can grow and learn and we can enjoy one another. I will put some parameters on their freedom - for their own good - and if they step outside of those parameters I will punish them forever" LATER (the amount of time is debatable) :jump: "Wow a lot of these people can't seem to stay within their boundaries. I will send them an example of how to be like me, and so that I won't have to punish them I will KILL MY SON so that these other creations can stay with me, as long as they know a recieve my Son" LATER (see above) "Wow there are a lot of people who don't know or have rejected my SON, I guess all of that was in vain - oh well, I will torture them forever." Great Story :confused:

Does your son pay FOREVER? A mistake in 80 years vs eternity?

Are you assuming a literal interpretation of the figurative/symbolic language of a man using code so that the Roman authorities couldn't understand his message and therefore wouldn't censor his letters to the people in Turkey? We are of the Roman tradition, why would we be able to understand by just a cursory reading? It is apocalyptic literature in the tradition of that of the old testatment. It flies in the face of the Jesus that is presented to us in the Gospel, who shuns the pageantry of the Great White Horse of the Romans (Pilate probably arrived a few days or weeks before Jesus and came in as a conquering hero) for the donkey of a servant. A savior who brings victory through peace and love and tells Peter to put away his sword b/c that is not the type of messiah he was. Why would he then change character completely when we get to Revelation? Is it not possible that Revelation is metaphorical and speaks of the victory over evil in the only terms that the peope reading it could understand - apocalyptic literature was meant to bring hope to the oppressed - how else was John to do it without using this language. Also is it not possible that all of the fire in Revelation is a purifying fire that cleanses the people of their evil so that they too could be redeemed? Tell me, those of you who are parents, at what point would you CONDEMN your child FOREVER, ETERNITY to a lake of fire? If you would NEVER be willing to do that, and would ALWAYS hold out hope of them turning around, why do you assume GOD to be less loving and less hopeful and less full of grace than you? Why would GOD, who can do anything GOD wants to do, want to send someone to be eternally [darn]ed? God does not HAVE to do that - b/c GOD is GOD

I don't believe in a physical hell. There doesn't need to be one, if we don't have physical bodies.

Then why would Jesus go to hell and preach? If I am picking and choosing, are you ignoring? I have put a lot of different scripture references on this thread, if I am picking and choosing, I am picking and choosing a lot of them.

It is certainly possible that John was looking for the worst possible place to describe what it would be like without the presence of God. He chose Gehenna. It may also be that John was describing a place where fire 'purified' the soul after death. Anybody attempting to bring "real meaning" to the words of Revelation can do nothing but make an educated Guess. You cannot KNOW what it all means.

I think eternal separation from the love of God is eternal torment. I just don't believe in a physical hell. Biblical authors had the use words that we could understand. We can't completely understand the physical, how could we possible understand the ephemeral or spiritual. Revelations is primarily all metaphor and symbolism . . .