acemona

i never said not to address it, but why do we need to point out what people are doing wrong, the Bible even warns against it. At my church we preach God's love, we preach how to be good disciples, how to live a life pleasing to God - the things that we SHOULD DO. I feel more guilty for my sins of omission, not doing a better job of helping the oppressed, than I do about my personal sin, b/c I know I have a relationship with God and his expectation is that I will help others. Besides, what is a sin to someone may not be a sin to another . . . yeah, for real. For you, the big sin is Abortion (I am not conviced it is a sin, I assume God will work with those individuals as he needs to) - For others it is homosexuality (not sure Paul or Moses had all of the science facts - even Al Mohler - president of southern baptist seminary - believes it is genetic now - does God create people to sin?) If it is genetic, and if it is a genetic Malady (not my belief necessarily) then is it also a sin to have CF or MDS? Some churches preach about the evil sin of Drinking Alcohol. And for some this may be a sin, but it is not biblical. Moderation is Biblical. Some preach on the sin of dancing, that is not biblical. Again, when asked what are the most important rules to follow, Jesus said LOVE GOD AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR - ALL OTHER COMMANDS HANG ON THESE THINGS - should that not then be the message? Would not sin begin to disappear as people began to love God and each other more and as a result refrained from doing things that hurt the relationship? Things that they knew IN THEIR HEART to be damaging. With the woman at the well Jesus gave her water - accepted her - and then told her to go sin no more, but he didn't beat the sin to death, he offered her an alternative to it. He saved the other woman from stoning and told those getting ready to do it that if they were without sin to cast the first stone. My friend, who attends Southeast in Louisville, says that they would not accept a homosexual as being saved unless that homosexual denounced that lifestyle. How does he or anyone else know the heart of an individual and get to decide who is or is not saved? He also owns a porsche, a very large house, and has more than he needs, but no one has ever asked him to denounce his way of life - nor would I, b/c I don't claim to know his heart, but on the surface it appears to fly in face of the teachings of Jesus.

I would hope that you would continue to contribute. The more ideas that are out here the better for all. Including me. I am certainly not above having my ideas moved.

How do you decide when not to take it literally? Aren't you then thrusting your own ideas and beliefs on the scripture? How can you say that the Levitican Law is symbolic, if you are taking it literally? Do you gouge your eye out or cut your hand off when it offends you? Do you cut your hair on the ends and trim your beard? Do women remain silent in your church. When you try to make it all black and white it/you (the general you) becomes legalistic and then we are back to the Pharisees and the Saducees.

No judgment meant, hard to decipher tone in writing. My point was that if we simply say, well this is the law I have to abide by it, and it is never challenged, then it will never be changed. Most people are pushed to make changes, they don't randomly make the changes themselves. i never said you were against those things . . . but someone at some point had to challenge the law, even if it meant breaking it, before we could have reform. Can you clearly defend the immigration process if you can't clearly define it. TB&G has asked several times about the process and cost and no one can say what it is yet, we defend it as being good. Why? B/c the government says it is good?

Just as those who are crossing the border now, are finding their way. Some who came across sold themselves as indentured servants, and some are doing that now. What is arduous in a depressed country is coming up with cash to pay the lawyers to make sure you do it legally.

Some would say/argue that the measures are prohibitive to those escaping economic oppression.

I am not taking it literally, but I believe that there is theological truth in all of it. In all scripture. The theological truth in revelation is that God is ultimately victorious no matter who is ruling the world at any given time. The theological truth of the creation story is that God is the creator and that mankind is the ultimate/final creation. The theological truth of the old testament is that things go better when you are trying to do God's will, the Theological truth of the new testament is that God is a loving God and wishes for no one to perish, even to the point of sending his son to live and die as a man, and that Jesus is the closest thing we have of a TRUE vision of God - much better than the vision of God that Moses had, or any of the prophets of the Old Testament. I have not fleshed this out completely, but I am still an emerging Christian. No one on this board takes the scripture literally, or we would be living like the Mennonites - Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and we do not follow the Leviticus code, and don't even try.

I Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righeous and the UNRIGHTEOUS, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preched to the spirits in prison (hell) who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the Ark was being built.

A lot of them do pay taxes, especially sales taxes, and many have a fake SS card so they pay into that system and will never benefit, thereby HELPING with the mess that we have created. I again, don't think anyone is advocated, illegal immigration - what I see is that many believe is that the current policies are wrong, and have been pointed out by those who choose to break the law, and that we, as good Christian people, ought to work to remedy the problem. Again, with illegal immigration we have a shrinking population and will run short of workers at some point. The baby boomers children are not have many babies.

So you are associating us with the chosen people of Israel who were held under the oppressive rule of the Egyptians (in slavery)? WOW (honestly, and I am not completely sure, but I think many of those stories read God back into what happened). Things were not going well with our enemies, God was not with us, things are going well with our enemies, God was not with us. Surely you don't believe God wanted someone to bash the heads of children against the rocks as the Psalmist says? You also know that the story of Noah, was first told similarly many years before among the Sumerians and was part of the Epic of Gilgamesh? I am not picking an choosing what I see, and I know what my church does and I know about disaster relief, but did you see any of that on television? I am talking about what Fred Smith who lives on main street in London, Ky. hears about Christians. He does not go to church and doesn't work with many Christians. What he sees it what he gets on television from the talking heads. I agree non-Christians don' watch the 700 Club but Pat Roberston ran for President for goodness sakes, he is on TV in a lot of other places. Ralph Reed is the former director of the PAC (i think it was a PAC) know as the Moral Majority. He is now a lobbyist and has been connected to Abramhoff.

If I have the choice of dying in poverty in central america or breaking the laws of the U.S. so that my family can survive, there is no question what the morally right thing to do is. Only when people point out the shallow, short sightedness of laws can we change them. Again I go back to Rosa Parks, had she not violated the law we might still be living in a Jim Crow society. If everyone is always compliant, the law will never change. Gandhi went to prison to show that the west had lost "all moral backing" (those are not the exact words, but pretty dang close), for its unjust laws in India. He was not compliant he was defiant - eventlually the west changed its ruling ways. Have you seen "Les Miserables" - Jean van Jean (sp) stole to feed his family - he went to prison for it, but he did the morally right thing. That is the whole story here. What is moral thing for a "Christian Nation" to do? That is why I started this thread with the scripture.

I think the religion that most people see is what they see on TV and they do see Robertson and Falwell, if not preaching, being spokespersons, I even saw Ralph Reed on Anderson Cooper last night. The also see the legislature BASHING homosexuals and never talking about the poor and downtrodden. They see "christians" like W talking about how God is on our side in this war (I thought God was for ALL PEOPLE). They see 'christian' talking about putting people in jail for trying to create a better life for themselves (see the immigration thread) and they see 'christians' talking about all of the lazy people on welfare, how the science of Global warming is junk, blah, blah, blah, that is the religion they see.

By take care of the sin, I mean convict you of it so that you want to repent and turn toward him. That is not my nor your job, it is God's, and yet that is the way we approach it. How often is your church on national TV competing with the 700 Club and the Old Time Gospel Hour? That is the religion that people see. How often does your preacher show up on a sunday morning news show?

It is my understanding, and I may be way wrong, that part of the issue is that it cost like 1500.00 per. If you are fleeing economic oppression then you don't have 1500.00 for each person in your family. somebody please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

You know, I think he mentioned sin, but I think the bulk of his preaching was about being in a right relationship, there were no Falwellian or Robertsonian tirades about the evil of . . . whatever. His strongest language was reserved for the Self-righteous "you brood of vipers" and for those who thought they were living right but not taking care of the poor - the rich young ruler. Even with the woman at the well it was not a condemning full of fear conversation, it was "look what i have to offer . . . you don't need that other stuff." then he told her to go sin no more, not b/c she should be afraid of hell, he never even mentioned it, but b/c he offered her something better than the sin. our preaching is usually, YOU NEED TO GET RID OF THAT SIN, THEN GET RIGHT WITH GOD. When it should be "God loves you and wants an intimate relationship with you." then once they are in the intimate relationship God can take care of the sin.

Just trying to get the Christian take on the immigration issue. There are some Christians, around the world, who would say that "migration is a human right." i saw a great video on it tonight at church - dealing with the African refugee problem in morocco. We know now from whence they come

A) The law is obviously impossible to enforce when we have between 12 and 23 MILLION violators that are not paying a penalty B) If the ship is sinking it might be time to quit bailing and get on another ship (whatever that means - you get my point) C) The law needs to be changed and though I hate to admit it I think Bush may be on target on this one.

It would appear that I am advocating changing the immigration law. Do you think Rosa Parks should have gone to jail?

you mean like the Jim Crow laws, and the slavery laws - oh that's right we became more enlightened and changed those laws. I guess if we are to go with your way of thinking then the little old lady from Alabama would still be in jail for not giving up her seat and I should be put in jail every time I walk down the street with ice cream in my back pocket (KY has some kind of silly law like that), women, minorities and people under the age of 21 should not be allowed to vote and we should not be selling alcohol anywhere?

Are you suggesting that all illegal immigrants are gay men?? :confused: I have come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Mr. Larry, you are simply ignoring again. I pick you ignore, it is a fun game we play.:lol:

I would say that yours is more emotional, based on fear. The simple fact, those who wish to do us harm, will. A we have become intent on villifying 12 million people, most of who are contributing to our society.

No desire for you to end. I used the word MONSTER in a description of God that I do not believe to be true, and if I had to believe that to be a Christian, I don't know that I would. I don't believe God to be a monster, but I think that is the picture that is put before the world most of the time, and it is not a picture that would draw people to Jesus. I think we need to spend more time putting the God of the Gospel before people - 2 Greatest Commandments Love God with All your Heart Soul and Strength Love your neighbor as yourself All others hang on these I think we need to put the God of "love your enemies" on the front line, the God of turn the other cheek, the God of Peter put away your sword. the God of forgive those who sin against you 7 x 70 - forever!!! (He wants us to forgive forever, but he will not?) But we continue to put a God on the front pages of our newspaper and on our televisions that gives us Katrina b/c of our hateful ways, or 9/11 because of the gays in the country and that is such crap. Why would any homosexual who sees the way that some of our best known evangelist talk about them ever darken the door of the church? Philip Yancey in his book "What's So Amazing About Grace." tells the story of a drug ridden prostitute that someone is interviewing and she is talking about her life and how much pain and sorrow she has endured. The interviewer asks, "have you ever thought about church?" She responds, "I feel bad enough about myself already, why would I go there?" The church needs to be a place people go for safety and security not to be condemned by the members. Jesus said I didn't come for those who were well, I come for those who are sick and need the doctor. We get to be so self righteous in our condemning of sin that we forget that we all are sinners. Do you think that is the image of God that Jesus tried to portray - NO WAY Where do homosexuals fit in . . . they are my neighbor. I have ignored it, b/c Jesus did - don't remember him saying one word about it. Why are you so anxious to call some out on it - is Jesus not more condemning of those who are greedy - Greed is taking more than you need, and we celebrate CAPITALISTS in this country and we honor people who have more than they need, but we condemn homosexuals, a group Jesus never mentioned. (There are suggestions that Paul references it so much b/c a lot of his audience was Hellenistic and they had a habit of practicing pedophilia - Male Teachers - and their students and that this is the bigger target of Paul and not consenting adults who are caused to fornicate b/c of our laws that don't allow them to marry.) We put down the poor and say they are lazy when Jesus says to lift them up. "A brother asks for your coat, give him your shirt too." It does not say to make sure that he NEEDS it, it says, if he asks - Give it to him. We condemn illegal immigrants (see my other thread) when the Bible says to love them. Jesus' teachings are so anti-capitalism but we pay no attention to it. It is all about wealth redistribution (parable of the workers who come late to the fields) and all About Grace and we preach against Homosexuals, Abortion, Prayer in School, the Hanging of the 10 Commandments, and we lash out at everyone's sin so as not to have to pay attention to our own and Jesus says "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone..." LBBC says I am reckless in thinking that someone might have a second chance in the next life and that they will live willy-nilly in this one, but my beleif is that MY SALVATION is not so much about the next life, but about this one - "I came so that you could have LIFE and have it more ABUNDANTLY" and about bringing God's Kingdom to earth as we now live in it - "Thy Kingdom COME, thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven. BTW, my father in law would be very proud I think. I spew a lot of his words from my mouth. One of the final straws in him leaving the seminary was for being called on the carpet for talking about the maternal instincts of God during Chapel. That was too big of a God for the new seminary leadership - their God was much smaller It is not my job to convict people of their sin, the Holy Spirit does that, and the Holy Spirit can only do that when someone has been introduced to the Love of Jesus. We need to preach about the Life/Love of Christ as much as the death/sacrifice - BUT WE PREACH ABOUT SIN AND THAT IS SO SAD.

Then, if that is the fear, we should not let anyone in b/c those that have perpetrated terrorism on our soil have come in legally. Not only that, we should kick all radical, fundamentalist religious people out b/c they are the ones who have perpetrated the most domestic terrorism. Tim McVeigh, David Koresh, Jim Jones, (Ruby Ridge), etc

Because often times (maybe most) when talking about scripture on this board there is general consensus that you should have a literal reading not one based on review and interpretation.

Some of these negatives are definitely the result of the immigration itself, but many are the result of poor policy. My in-laws live in WACO and their economy rests on the backs of the immigrants