ThinThirty

Oh I hear what you are saying and agree with it. However, the right to appeal the KHSAA's decision to the judiciary is not a loophole. It's a statutory right to the judiciary, the same right you would receive for example if you filed for unemployment benefits and were improperly denied by the Ky Office of Employment and Training.

 

One can argue that the right to play high school athletics is no where near as important as the right to receive unemployment benefits, and thus players/parents shouldn't have the right to appeal the KHSAA's decision to court. And that might be a popular opinion. Unfortunately, Chapter 13B doesn't read that way. Heck, one could likewise effectively argue that athletics is a very important part of the educational process, as case studies show time after time again that athletes generally have higher GPAs, are better students and have fewer discipline problems than non-athletes. Thus the ability to participate in athletics is crucially important and players/parents should have the ability to appeal the KHSAA's decisions to the courts. That's above my pay grade and I'll leave it with the KHSAA's rules provide for appeals to the court system so players/parents are living within the rules when they do so.

Nah, it truly wasn't the Highlands mention that got my attention. I'm just very familiar with the rules, due in part with my knowledge of the Mitchell case and the fact I'm an attorney, that "compels" me to want to clarify the issue.

 

The court standard for overrruling the KHSAA (or any other state administrative agency) is based on whether the court finds the agency's final decision to be arbitrary or capricious. Some folks have long argued that some local courts will be "homers" and overturn the KHSAA without good cause. Even if true, that's an "inefficiency" of our judicial system found in all types of legal matters that we just have to accept. If a person doesn't think one of my Ohio based corporate clients can be homered by a California judge, they would be wrong. It happens. I just have to appeal the decision to a higher level court that hopefully will correctly apply the law and my client has to deal with the incorrect lower level court's decision in the meantime. I can't tell my court to ignore the lower level decision because I think my client got homered. I can't tell my client that decisions of our judicial system are to be ignored because some judges may issue "homer" decisions. It stinks no doubt, but at the end of the day, respect and compliance with our Constitution and the judiciary is more important than the outcome of any high school athletic event. Unfortunately, some people (particularly adults) get so wrapped up in athletics, they lose sight of the big picture and want to deny people their statutory rights in the name of athletics.

What ever the law says I'm all for it. Athletics has nothing to do with my opinion about how lawyers can get around things and what is right or wrong, I see cases everyday on local and on the national level, where its very plain to see that people are guilty but get off on technical issues or find loop holes. I agree injustice in High School Athletics is kind of small beans, but you have to start somewhere. I hope the law is applied correctly in this situation. Also, I am a Christian and true justice will be served one day.

Please keep in mind that the KHSAA rules permit a player to appeal their decision to the judicial system and get an injunction. For the life of me I don't understand folks who think that schools/players need to comply with the KHSAA rules but want to deny the ability to go to court when the rules permit it. Perhaps I'm a slave to my legal training, but that's illogical. I understand that you were just expressing your opinion, but since the KHSAA is a state agency, KRS Chapter 13B guarantees the right to appeal the KHSAA's final decision to the judicial system.

I didn't know that, but of course our legal system and its design allows for loop holes. The KHSSA rules and regs were put into place for a reason to keep order and control, so every individual and team can't do what ever they want. I can see a court over riding a KHSAA decision if its controversial or not clear cut, but from what I have seen this is not the case in this situation. Maybe the court will uphold the KHSAA decision, I guess we will know sometime in the near future. If the rules permit an appeal then I'm all for it, but like I said some laws and regulations can be twisted and the true purposes not be met. I'm sure my mention of Highlands got your attention a little, but I was just using it as an example.

I don't know what all of the answers are, but I don't think that when you are playing under an authority like the KHSAA, and the rules a clear, which in Dunn's case they seem to be, you can hire a lawyer get a court order and over ride the system. I'm not just saying this because I am a Danville fan, if he were leaving Boyle Co. and wanting to come to Danville I would feel the same way. I hate to see a player miss their senior year, but from everything I've seen, he shouldn't be eligible to play. Have other players done this very thing in the past, probably, at Danville probably, but were they cleared to play, yes. I think the player at Highlands a few years ago was able to over ride the KHSAA with a court order. But what a mess, and I know its a contriversial topic on this message board. In MY OPINION, when the KHSAA rules, hears an appeal an rules again that should be the end of the matter.

Here is what will eventually lead to the death of alot of the City Independent schools across the state. The City can and will expand via annex but the school district will not follow and cant. The schools boundaries are set and will not be allowed by the state to expand. It is one of the driving forces that has hurt other programs like Mayfield where I have had a front row seat watching this policy slowly erode away the district as most of the new growth continues outside the and when the city does annex the school distict has to remain locked. Harp is a great coach but the challenge to keep the Ads program elite will only continue to become a tougher challenge in the future no matter who is the coach. One thing that I have always admired about Harp is his ability to adapt in the past to the talent he has had to work with. He prefers to run but a few years ago he had a great qb and the Ads adapted and threw.

It would not suprise me to see a merger between the two schools in the next 10 years.

Here is why I say that Boyles success has had a negative impact on Danville. First of all, the majority of the growth in Boyle County takes place outside of Danville School districts. This has pulled numbers and middle class kids out of the Danville City schools.

Second, if you lived in Boyle County in the 80's and 90's and wanted your child to play football, you were going to consider paying tuition and going to Danville. Kids in Streamland Lanock, Bluegrass Estates who were athletes often went to Danville from an early age. With the success of Boyle County in both athletics and academics, Danville is no longer getting those kids.

Sometimes cycles in school districts take up to 10 years to play through. When was Boyle's first championship? I think it has had an effect.

Who are these players you are speaking of? I've been involved either playing or watching Danville football for 35-40 years, I'm not saying there haven't been any, but very few that paid tuition to come to Danville to play football that had much impact on their past success. I do agree that most of the growth has taken place in the places you spoke of and most of those are in the Danville city limits, I just wished the Danville school district would have expanded when the City of Danville annexed those neighborhoods. I would imagine that a good part of Boyle's football team lives in the City limits of Danville.

Danville has struggled because they haven't had the same amount of big time talent as they did for a while. It has nothing to do with Harp or BC in my opinion.

I agree, but this is also the times when you then have to be willing to out work people in the weight room, taking pride and caring enough to do what has to be done to win. Some of Danville's losses last year were because the other teams were more talented and some were because they were out worked. Danville has won some games in the past against more talented teams because of work ethic, dedication, and the desire to lay it on the line. It appears that some of the younger players coming up may get back to having this attitude, I hope so. I honestly wish some of the older players, if they haven't changed their attitude for this year would just decide not to play football this year. And I'm talking about some that have some good athletic ability, but lack agressiveness and effort.

And how many of those fans are bought in fans. The ones who come to every game, are out helping promote the program fundraise and do the things that it takes at top notch programs?

 

The interest level in Danville football has dropped IMO because of spoiled fans. They got used to year in and out showing up at 3 or 4 games a year (Boyle Co, Bardstown, Semi Finals, and Finals) and being able to beat there chest about "their" football program and team.

 

Danville is struggling in part due to the success of Boyle Co and their program and in part due to less talent. Danville went through a 20-25 year cycle of great talent and football. They are a little down to their standards, but it will be back.

Boyle County's program is doing well right now, but I don't think it has any effect on Danville's football program, except for the Will Dunn situation. Boyle County is winning the games against each other right now, but I don't see how that has anything to do with the rest of the struggles Danville is having at this point.

I don't think Harp needs to go, but I do wish he would lay the law down on some of the players. If they are not willing to comit then they don't need to play. The weight training program has not been pushed the way it should have been, if it had, the Admiral defense would not have looked like swiss cheese last year. The Admirals have some athletes, but they need to be a lot stronger and more agressive. If you don't want to be agressive, Why even play? Tom Duffy is the coach that rebuilt Danville football to Championship status and layed a good foundation for Coach Harp. But no doubt Coach Harp is a great Coach and continued to build on what Duffy started.

Is there anyone who doubts that Dunn transferred for athletic reasons? All this semantics and posturing is a sign of the times - twist the rules to try and get what you want. If you believe Dunn is transferring for a reason other than athletics, then make your points. Otherwise, it is hypocritical to argue for a kid who is trying to get around the state rules. And all because of some far fetched idea that this move will help get a scholarship? There is no way going to Boyle County will have any impact on whether Dunn gets a scholarship. I just think this whole situation is very sad for a lot reasons.

I think you are right on Voice of Reason. Though in my opinion, it looks like the family felt it would increase his scholarship chances and probably in reality wouldn't have.

I asked this question earlier about how much a text from a teen holds up in a court of law. I think it held some, but the Danville camp with there letters to the KHSAA and all of that was enough at the end of the day.

Whether true or not I haven't seen it, there was mention of Dunn making some questionable comments in the BCHS newspaper that sounded like he made the move for sports purposes? This also if true would affect things? It just appears on the outside looking in, Dunn made some moves and comments, which left not made would not have jeopardized his transfer. When this first came out I made the statement, "I hoped Dunn's family researched this situation well, and covered all the bases before they pulled the trigger."

I understand and I'm sure you know the situation alot better than I do. I think it would have to be a come to Jesus meeting with the players ,coaches and the young man. I'm sure the team would want an apology for some of the things that were said but, I would like to believe it could be worked out. Then again like you said he may not want to come back and play at Danville and it may be better to just move on. Hopefully he will not miss out playing his senior year.:popcorn:

I agree.:thumb:

I hope your wrong if he decides to return to Danville. Kids make mistakes and I would like to believe Coach Harp, an adult, is a big enough man to let this young man play football for Danville if this is the only way he can play next year.

I hear you, but this situation is a hard one, there is a lot of history between these schools. A lot of team chemistry is built on trust and loyalty, not saying I agree one way or the other but this would be hard. If he wanted to come back which I don't think he does, not sure, just have heard comments that would lead one to beleive he wouldn't. But I guess going with the team chemistry theme, I think the DHS players would have to have a say in the matter.

The Advocate Messenger really opened up a can of worms here, they tapped into the rivalry factor between the two schools. I heard from a reliable source that the Danville representatives in no uncertain terms expressed to the paper their displeasure as to the way they handled this story. I also noticed the newspaper pulled the story from the online version of the paper. I think everybody needs to take a deep breath and settle down, people are getting ridiculous in the comments section of the paper. This issue needs to be settled by the parties involved, The Dunns, KHSAA, Court, and who ever else is asked for facts from in this issue.

Which is what I was trying to get at earlier in this thread. The kid in question was from Lincoln County, but when he leaves Danville fights it all the way.

 

Coaches' egos are fragile.

Will Dunn may have lived in Lincoln County at one time, But lived in Danville and established his eligibility when he started High School. I think he even played for Bate Middle School.

That could be true. I think this situation is far from over, but I guess we shall see.

Another thing I was thinking, is, Does Boyle County want all this distraction? I know Boyle officials said they would not comment on its students and I think that is really smart on their part. But, would they want this looming over their program? What part will they play in the appeal? Highlands sure got in a mess a few years back. I'm sure Boyle officials will have their ducks in a row dealing with this situation. I gained great respect for the Boyle football program last year with their work ethic and dedication to winning their championship.:thumb:

No, what I am saying is that I believe sometimes coaches talk, sometimes they don't. The question I posed is what does he gain? Seems like there have been a few times that there have been kids everyone in town knows should be playing at the school down the road, but nothing is said or done. I don't recall Spencer Perrin or Christian Williams going through any of this. Didn't they just simply move into Boyle County areas? Or were they already there and playing for Danville when they shouldn't have been?

I don't know where these guys lived, but from what I've seen stated on this thread as the rules, where ever they establish there eligibility is where they play unless they can transfer and meet KHSAA requirements. In their cases they must have been cleared to transfer. I don't know what Coach Harp's thinking is. He is AD and coach for Danville maybe he was required to make this statement by the KHSAA, maybe he wasn't. But a couple of other posts on here lead me to beleive his statement was probably a moot point.

So Sam Harp gains what? I'll definitely throw blame Harp's way. Is he that bitter? Will Dunn is not the first athlete to transfer from Danville to Boyle County and vice versa but this is the first time an eligibility issue has been brought up. There are kids at Danville right now that should be at Boyle County and vice versa. Sam gets burned this time around and now a kid's senior season is in jeopardy. What does Sam gain is all I am asking.

 

I understand you are Admiral through and through and I respect that, but as a Rebel, I can't help but have the picture of a bitter man determined to not let Will Dunn do as he pleases as so many other kids from this area have done. Would Sam be signing statements for the KHSAA if Lamar Dawson wanted to be an Admiral and showed up at the school's doorstep tomorrow......

So are you saying all of these other kids really broke KHSAA rules and everybody just covered it up by keeping quiet and not giving information to the KHSAA when they inquired about it? If Lamar Dawson wanted to be an Admiral, Coach Harp probably wouldn't be signing statements Larry French maybe if he was asked by the KHSAA. In my opinion which doesn't mean much to anybody but me, this appears to a clear cut violation and I don't care to which schools advantage DHS or BCHS or any other school, no matter what school I'm loyal to the ruling is correct with known information? I don't think athletes should be able to do as they please.

He is definitely eligible to return to Danville and play. If he is not eligible at Boyle Co. then the KHSAA is saying he is eligible at Danville. They (the KHSAA) can't deny him from playing at Danville. Sam Harp can though!!!

I wasn't sure since he did enroll in school at Boyle County. I don't know what Coach Harp would do if Dunn wanted to come back to Danville. From watching him coach and listening to him since 1988 he has always been big on loyalty. I guess we will have to wait and see how all this plays out. What a mess.:irked:

I think so they could say that they got all of their information from the open files. Their defense will be that anyone who looks at files will find out anyways. It's open to the public. I am more shocked that Sam Harp would name the kid involved in the text messageing than from a newspaper reporting what they found out in public records.

I'm not sure Sam Harp named the kid getting the text message, or maybe he had to for the schools statement to be legit. Does it matter? I see a lot of people throwing blame Harp's way. Is that fair? Dunn and family made this decision, and in my opinion what ever happens is the choice they made. It looks like he left just to play with a better team. The KHSAA puts rules in place so players and families can't just do what ever they want to. If they didn't have rules High School athletics would be pure kaos. IF the info in the paper is correct this ruling is clear cut.

Reguardless why the kid moved into his dads house, it meets the requirements set by the KHSAA. Once again we have an agency that says it is there to help kids and they are putting it to a kid. The KHSAA amazes me some days. The kid is playing by their rules.

 

As for DHS, why would you want to have a kid on your team that doesn't want to be there. I know the concern that this could lead to a bunch more kids leaving. But if Dunn has to come back to play for you, it makes things difficult on the team.

 

I wish all parties involved the best.

I don't think there is any chance he will return to Danville to play football, maybe at this point the rules wouldn't allow that either. I don't think Coach Harp's motivation to sign a statement has anything to do with forcing him to come back to Danville. Not sure, I don't think we have all the information to make too many judgements. In addition sometimes newspapers can report things inaccurately.:idunno:

The text message from Dunn to another Danville player that is talked about in the Advocate Messenger, if true, will no way allow a reversal by the KHSAA when this decision is appealed. The rules need to be followed, sometimes you make decisions that are hard to live with later, I have no negative feelings toward Dunn and hate to see him miss his senior year but you have to abide by the rules set forth by the KHSAA. I would find it hard to beleive that the family wasn't aware of the potential circumstances that could come from this transfer.

I wonder how long it will take for the KHSAA to rule on Will's eligibility? I hope eveything works out for him, He is a nice young man and plays hard on the field. I think at times he might have felt like a lone ranger last year.

I hope so, I'll be there supporting them what ever happens.:thumb:

Maybe you should go and offer your coaching services since you think you have it figured out.

I don't guess I have it all figured out, but I have seen some disturbing things on the sidelines and by the way, I've heard others say the same things and agree with me. I would love to help them coach, just don't have the time. I guarantee I would be in some ears. Also, you ask me how I made my assesment I told you, its my opinion you don't have to agree, but a lot of people do!