The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

 

It says we have rights even if they aren't listed. It was famously added to appease Hamilton, who contended that we have every liberty not specifically circumscribed in the Constitution and fear a Bill of Rights would do nothing more than limit them. Well, where'd they go?

I've always viewed the US Constitution as a document that defines the limitations of government, not as one that grants rights to the people. The people have inalienable rights that are granted by (gasp!) God. Or, if you're uncomfortable with that, call it "human rights." Anyway, we as humans enjoy rights that we get just because we're human - life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, private property, etc. These can't be given by any document, they just are. The constitution limits the government so that it will never infringe on those rights.

 

Where'd they go? They're being chipped away, little by little in the name of "fairness," "equality," and "social justice" and many Americans don't even realize it.

I've always viewed the US Constitution as a document that defines the limitations of government, not as one that grants rights to the people. The people have inalienable rights that are granted by (gasp!) God. Or, if you're uncomfortable with that, call it "human rights." Anyway, we as humans enjoy rights that we get just because we're human - life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, private property, etc. These can't be given by any document, they just are. The constitution limits the government so that it will never infringe on those rights.

 

Where'd they go? They're being chipped away, little by little in the name of "fairness," "equality," and "social justice" and many Americans don't even realize it.

:thumb:

I've always viewed the US Constitution as a document that defines the limitations of government, not as one that grants rights to the people. The people have inalienable rights that are granted by (gasp!) God. Or, if you're uncomfortable with that, call it "human rights." Anyway, we as humans enjoy rights that we get just because we're human - life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, private property, etc. These can't be given by any document, they just are. The constitution limits the government so that it will never infringe on those rights.

 

Where'd they go? They're being chipped away, little by little in the name of "fairness," "equality," and "social justice" and many Americans don't even realize it.

 

I was with you until the last line. What do you mean?

I was with you until the last line. What do you mean?

 

I assumed when you asked "Where'd they go?" you were asking what is happening to our rights.

 

I've always believed that the founders set this country up so that we all have equal opportunity. They set up as fair and level playing field as was possible. Does someone born into a wealthy family with both parents present have a better opportunity than someone born into a poor, single-parent family? Of course - but that will always be the way it is. And the fact is, there are success stories of people overcoming great obstacles to achieve success in the U.S.

 

But, I think that our society (and, it follows, our government) has become fixated on equal outcomes versus equal opportunity. This is where entitlement programs (Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Affirmative Action) come from. When the government controls more and more of our lives (retirement income, healthcare) the cost is our freedom.

I assumed when you asked "Where'd they go?" you were asking what is happening to our rights.

 

I've always believed that the founders set this country up so that we all have equal opportunity. They set up as fair and level playing field as was possible. Does someone born into a wealthy family with both parents present have a better opportunity than someone born into a poor, single-parent family? Of course - but that will always be the way it is. And the fact is, there are success stories of people overcoming great obstacles to achieve success in the U.S.

 

But, I think that our society (and, it follows, our government) has become fixated on equal outcomes versus equal opportunity. This is where entitlement programs (Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Affirmative Action) come from. When the government controls more and more of our lives (retirement income, healthcare) the cost is our freedom.

 

But, what does this have to do with rights? What rights are you saying we have lost, specifically?

But, what does this have to do with rights? What rights are you saying we have lost, specifically?

 

Private property rights (via the abuse of eminent domain), right to get a job or education (affirmative action/reverse discrimination), right to earned income (due to high tax rates to pay for entitlement programs).

 

Coming soon: Right to choose type of medical care I want (Healthcare legislation aka ObamaCare), unlawful detention (Indefinite Detention laws).

 

Habib, I'm not looking for a debate and these are a few examples of what I meant by my previous post - it's just that I see a trend over the last 80 years (and speeding up considerably over the last 10-15 years) of more government control and when that happens, rights and freedoms disappear. It can be summed up by this quote, "A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have...."

Habib, just occurred to me that I'm probably ranting on about something completely off of your original post.

 

When you asked "Where'd they go?", what exactly were you asking? Were you asking "Where did our rights go?" and if so, what rights were you talking about.

"States rights" and the "Tenth Amendment" are common refrains in politics, but why do we never hear about the Ninth? It would seem to be the most obvious guarantor of individual liberty in the Constitution, but it's entirely ignored.

"States rights" and the "Tenth Amendment" are common refrains in politics, but why do we never hear about the Ninth? It would seem to be the most obvious guarantor of individual liberty in the Constitution, but it's entirely ignored.

 

I've thought about this one several times. The question I've always come back to is this: was the Constitution truly written on a clean slate? If it were, then absolute freedom would be the starting point and the Ninth would be the reservation of all freedoms not specifically mentioned. But what if it wasn't written on a blank slate? What if the document is arcane and greatly reflects a place and time that bears no resemblance to the one that might even abstractly be mentioned in the document itself much less the one it actually established? Is the Ninth then little more than a truism?

 

If all that sounds like rambling and that, in reality, I have no idea what it means then I'm in the company of the United States Supreme Court, which seems to have no idea what to do with it.

I've thought about this one several times. The question I've always come back to is this: was the Constitution truly written on a clean slate? If it were, then absolute freedom would be the starting point and the Ninth would be the reservation of all freedoms not specifically mentioned. But what if it wasn't written on a blank slate? What if the document is arcane and greatly reflects a place and time that bears no resemblance to the one that might even abstractly be mentioned in the document itself much less the one it actually established? Is the Ninth then little more than a truism?

 

If all that sounds like rambling and that, in reality, I have no idea what it means then I'm in the company of the United States Supreme Court, which seems to have no idea what to do with it.

 

I've always thought that the founders assumed a certain amount of civility that, sadly, doesn't exist today.

 

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams

 

By citing the above quote, I'm not trying to start the "Christian nation" debate, just pointing out that, whether through religion, morality, philosophy - whatever - I think there needs to be an underpinning of civility for us to have the freedoms we were meant to have.

I've always thought that the founders assumed a certain amount of civility that, sadly, doesn't exist today.

 

I have a feeling that what the 18th-century landed gentry would have considered "civility" and what I'd consider it to be are very different. Perhaps that's a big part of the problem.

I've thought about this one several times. The question I've always come back to is this: was the Constitution truly written on a clean slate? If it were, then absolute freedom would be the starting point and the Ninth would be the reservation of all freedoms not specifically mentioned. But what if it wasn't written on a blank slate? What if the document is arcane and greatly reflects a place and time that bears no resemblance to the one that might even abstractly be mentioned in the document itself much less the one it actually established? Is the Ninth then little more than a truism?

 

Could you explain that more?

 

If all that sounds like rambling and that, in reality, I have no idea what it means then I'm in the company of the United States Supreme Court, which seems to have no idea what to do with it.

 

Sounds about right. I don't believe I can think of a time I've ever seen it cited or referenced anywhere. You wouldn't know it existed if you didn't read the Bill of Rights. What have the Supremes had to say about it over the years?

Could you explain that more?

 

 

 

Sounds about right. I don't believe I can think of a time I've ever seen it cited or referenced anywhere. You wouldn't know it existed if you didn't read the Bill of Rights. What have the Supremes had to say about it over the years?

 

I wonder if the founders even considered capitalism as a right, and as the right way for an economy to work? I know they fought over the Central Bank and whether or not the country should carry debt. But part of the revolution was fought over government give aways to big corporations like the East India Tea Company.

 

The other larger point is that the writers of the Declaration and Constitution were all influenced by the European Enlightenment and Locke's Two Treatises. The focus of much debate around the role of government centered on the Social Contract Theory. Hobbes - "man is basically bad and needs a government to reign in his 'urges'" - I am obviously paraphrasing - and Locke - Man is basically good and gives up some of his RIGHTS so that he can live better with his fellow man." Both of those discussions are alive and well, but they both have one thing in common. We give up, or have taken, some of our rights so that we can better get along.

 

I think the social contract theory has been completely thrown out of the window in the current Tea Partyish discussion about the role/size of government.

Some info: http://civilliberty.about.com/od/equalrights/p/9th_amendment.htm