Did you lose respect for BJ Penn when he threw in the towel after the 4th round against GSP?

 

BJ didn't throw in the towel, his corner did. You can not throw in the towel as a fighter, only your corner can. The doctor was stopping that fight anyway. I think the circumstances were very different- BJ never said he did not want to go, his corner and the doctor said he could not go. BJ didn't quit because he was getting beat up; he didn't say "no mas" a la Roberto Duran or tap like Shogun. It is different.

 

Again, there is no shame in getting beat up in the fight game; it happens to the best of us, eventually. The only shame comes from quitting, IMO.

 

 

The frog didn't tap- I'm just saying.

My recollection of the events go something like this, but I could be wrong.

 

First, Rashad said he wouldn't fight Jon Jones, a teammate. Sometime after that, Jones entertained the idea of fighting Rashad for the title. After Jones did that, Rashad's attitude changed and he too began to open up to the idea. I don't know the timeline as far as Rashad's injury, etc., but that is how I remember it progressing. So, I believe it is misleading to put it all on Rashad Evans.

 

As for leaving the camp, that's a no-brainer. There's no way two guys who are fighting for a belt can be in the same camp with the same trainer, IMO. And, there's no way Greg Jackson can walk away from training the current titleholder, especially considering he's a guy that could potentially dominate the division like Silva and GSP in lower weight classes. Maybe Rashad left to save face rather than have them choose the other guy.

 

And, of course, they now have a title fight to hype, so whether there is truly bad blood and hard feelings or not, they'll generate it.

 

Jon Jones looks like a bigger, stronger, more athletic, more dynamic and more explosive version of Rashad in some ways. So, my initial thought is Jones will win. But, I've underestimated Rashad before. He is a tough, strong guy with very good wrestling and striking that has improved with every fight. I wouldn't count him out.

 

I distinctly remember hearing an interview where Jon Jones said he would not fight Rashad if Rashad had the belt. It was after he was given the shot to fight Shogun on MMA Live, I believe.

 

That being said, I have no problem fighting a guy from your camp. it is a business decision. I have no problem with Rashad wanting what he earned, which was a title shot. If Rashad would have fought Shogun and won, I would have no problem with Jon Jones saying he wanted a shot. JMO.

I distinctly remember hearing an interview where Jon Jones said he would not fight Rashad if Rashad had the belt. It was after he was given the shot to fight Shogun on MMA Live, I believe.

 

That being said, I have no problem fighting a guy from your camp. it is a business decision. I have no problem with Rashad wanting what he earned, which was a title shot. If Rashad would have fought Shogun and won, I would have no problem with Jon Jones saying he wanted a shot. JMO.

 

I agree. If your teammate is the champ and you are the #1 contender then you'd be boo boo the fool to turn that down. Like I said its not a team sport, you have to look out for #1.

We are going to have to agree to disagree then, HB.

 

Are there some other fighters out there (current of former)- I feel like if you are a fighter then maybe you would get me. Am I way off base? I am not talking about guys that go to the gym and do some tae-bo, I mean guys who have been in the ring- wrestlers, boxers, etc. Am I really over-reacting here?

 

I've fought in a boxing match (amateur) and I've trained in muay Thai kickboxing. I've been rocked, so I know how it feels. I do not know how it feels to he kneed and kicked ad elbowed and punched by John jones. I have been elbowed in the face, kicked in the head, punched in the face....

 

 

With tht said, I don't lose respect for a fighter after he taps, no matter what. He put it all on the line...it is what it is.

I don't recall BJ putting up much of a protest at his corner throwing in the towel. I see little difference. The point is the persistence to finish the fight regardless of circumstance. All BJ did was quit and then make accusations that GSP was a cheat.

 

If you know you're done and you can't win, it is stupid to keep taking that level of punishment and risk a possible serious injury for no reason. In both of those fights, BJ and Shogun were getting some serious punishment without mounting any threat themselves in a 5 round fight. Neither guy was going to pull one out of a hat. It's no different than tapping out from a submission. You know you aren't getting out, so the only outcome is that something worse happens...like when Tim Sylvia wouldn't tap and got his arm broke. That was dumb. He didn't gain any respect from me for being an idiot.

I don't recall BJ putting up much of a protest at his corner throwing in the towel. I see little difference. The point is the persistence to finish the fight regardless of circumstance. All BJ did was quit and then make accusations that GSP was a cheat.

 

If you know you're done and you can't win, it is stupid to keep taking that level of punishment and risk a possible serious injury for no reason. In both of those fights, BJ and Shogun were getting some serious punishment without mounting any threat themselves in a 5 round fight. Neither guy was going to pull one out of a hat. It's no different than tapping out from a submission. You know you aren't getting out, so the only outcome is that something worse happens...like when Tim Sylvia wouldn't tap and got his arm broke. That was dumb. He didn't gain any respect from me for being an idiot.

 

You are flat wrong about throwing in the towel- period. It is not quitting- the fighter has zero control over it. You can protest, you can yell and scream, but you do not control that- your corner does.

 

You can control whether or not you tap due to strikes- all you have to do is not do it. It is quitting in almost all circumstances, IMO.

You are flat wrong about throwing in the towel- period. It is not quitting- the fighter has zero control over it. You can protest, you can yell and scream, but you do not control that- your corner does.

 

You can control whether or not you tap due to strikes- all you have to do is not do it. It is quitting in almost all circumstances, IMO.

 

And you're flat wrong about losing respect for a championship caliber fighter for tapping after being pummeled for 15 minutes with no chance of reversing the outcome.

How about Forrest Griffin? He quit against Anderson Silva. On the last knockdown, he waved his arms above his body as if to signal "no more" before running out of the cage. Respect Forrest?

And you're flat wrong about losing respect for a championship caliber fighter for tapping after being pummeled for 15 minutes with no chance of reversing the outcome.

How about Forrest Griffin? He quit against Anderson Silva. On the last knockdown, he waved his arms above his body as if to signal "no more" before running out of the cage. Respect Forrest?

 

Whether or not I lose respect for a fighter is an opinion. I can't be wrong. You are welcome to respectfully disagree.

 

You are wrong on throwing in the towel- it is a FACT that the corner does that and not the fighter, period.

 

The ref stopped the Silva fight with Griffin; there was no tap. That was a straight up KO. Now, Forrest running out of the cage is a whole different matter, as is Tim Sylvia not tapping in a submission. I have been very clear that I do not like the idea of tapping due to strikes; we can discuss this but the other situations that you keep bringing up do not have a fighter tapping due to strikes, so if you want to equate these situation to Shogun tapping then you are going to have to explain a little more why they are similar in your mind. In my mind, the fights you have mentioned are as different as tapping due to submission and tapping due to strikes.

 

Based on the argument you gave of tapping because you were getting pummeled, Anderson Silva should have tapped to Chael Sonnen. I mean, he was getting pummeled, right? Brock should have tapped to Shane Carwin, too. Why fight for your championship? If you see some major adversity, you should just tap and live to fight another day, right?

 

Getting beat up is a part of this game. You will get hit hard and a lot and a guy will look like he has the upper hand. If the ref stops it, you can say you did everything you could and the other guy was better that night. There is no shame in that. If you tap to submission, you can say that you just got caught and go back to work on your submission defense. If you tap to strikes, you quit. You do not give yourself a chance to come back that night. You had a choice of giving your all or quitting when the going got tough and you chose to quit. I do not see it any other way (unless there is an injury of some sort, as I mentioned earlier).

 

Again, I do not expect everyone to agree with me. I just want to make sure we can at least agree on what we disagree on.

^ Not to ruin your party or jeopardize your whole argument but I have went back and watched the video numerous times and I still don't think you can honestly say Shogun "tapped". The instance in which you refer to him tapping happens after Herb Dean had already jumped in to stop the fight and Jon Jones was already walking away victorious. Not really sure I would consider that a tap, and even if it was a "tap" he tapped after the fight had already been stopped.

^ Not to ruin your party or jeopardize your whole argument but I have went back and watched the video numerous times and I still don't think you can honestly say Shogun "tapped". The instance in which you refer to him tapping happens after Herb Dean had already jumped in to stop the fight and Jon Jones was already walking away victorious. Not really sure I would consider that a tap, and even if it was a "tap" he tapped after the fight had already been stopped.

 

I said as much in my first post on this. The fight does not end in a tap, it is a TKO. Shogun clearly taps right after Dean stops the fight, though.

I said as much in my first post on this. The fight does not end in a tap, it is a TKO. Shogun clearly taps right after Dean stops the fight, though.

 

Then how are we to even know it was a "tap". I mean when people get rocked their body does a lot of things, we have saw guys go limp, have muscle convulsions, take their mouth pieces out, etc. Bottom line is they do things they don't know their doing, how are we to know Shoguns intentions were to tap? The way I see it if he was really going to tap he would have done so while on the ground and getting pummeled and would not have stood up and let Jones rush him again.

^ Okay, then we can agree to disagree on Shogun's intention there.

Then how are we to even know it was a "tap". I mean when people get rocked their body does a lot of things, we have saw guys go limp, have muscle convulsions, take their mouth pieces out, etc. Bottom line is they do things they don't know their doing, how are we to know Shoguns intentions were to tap? The way I see it if he was really going to tap he would have done so while on the ground and getting pummeled and would not have stood up and let Jones rush him again.

 

 

:lol: sometimes fighters try and tackle the ref after being rocked. Another reason not to think anything of this "tap".

I just watched this again and there is no doubt in my mind that he tapped- check 13:08 mark; this is the final knee and then watch Shogun crumble and tap. As far as Shogun knew in that moment that fight ended because he tapped to strikes, so I am working off of this premise.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq2w1Sl8k8A&feature=player_detailpage

He probably did tap...I do not care. I don't lose respect for him even if he tapped.