The tenure thing is overhyped. If there is an ineffective teacher, the principal can get rid of them. It is that simple.

As long as teachers are underpaid compared to other professions, you are not going to get the cream of the crop.

 

Why, I don't know, but I took a $15,000 cut in pay in 1990 to leave JCPenny management and go back into teaching. There are many great teachers out there that wouldn't do that. If you want the cream of the crop to be there, then you have to entice them financially to be there.

 

Otherwise, you have to rely on suckers like me willing to give up that money to come and teach.

This last part,

 

Do you think that teachers in under-performing schools have the same high expectations for their students as they do in more successful schools? Do you think teachers in under-performing schools assume ownership of issues as they do in other successful schools?

 

First instinct, who determines whom is under-performing and whom is not. I counter that there are times that the teachers of Covington Holmes do a better job to get their students to the level that they get them to, than the teachers of Highlands and Beechwood do.

 

Just because students do well, doesn't necessarily mean the teacher is outstanding.

 

My wife has been told that she is giving the more difficult classes because she can handle them. The "better students" go to another teacher who cannot handle the discipline problems in my wife's class. So, the teacher that cannot handle the discipline issues gets a reputation of being an outstanding teacher because she has the brightest students. Whose the better teacher?

 

Grading teachers is a very, very, very difficult thing to do. One 6th grade teacher has a student who makes straight A's. Another 6th grade teacher has a student who they get reading on a 2nd grade level. That student leaves them reading on a 5th grade level but pulled straight D's. Which teacher will be perceived by the public as the better teacher? Which teacher WAS the better teacher?

One thing that has become a trend in schools today, every student is trying to be jammed into the same round hole. And many are square blocks that their path is not the same round hole.

 

Their path might be vocational or tech or military or construction or on and on and on.

 

We are trying to jam all students into a college path. Read recently that college dropouts are at an all time high because there are students going who do not want to go but that is the path that is being jammed down their throat.

 

There is nothing wrong in a vocational path but it has a horrible stigma tied to it in this country. Like something is wrong with you and you are lacking if you choose that path.

Let me add that I fully believe that there needs to be changes in the public school system. Just don't agree with the changes that many feel are essential in our political climate.

 

My first would be to allow vouchers and allow the full gamut of our educational system in this country open to all.

If parents want their kids to succeed and the kids want to succeed then it falls on one person, the child. You can have the best teachers in the world but if the child isn't putting out the necessary effort they will never achieve. A lot of what the child does depends on how the parents push. I've said it over and over the difference in me and my friends who haven't finished college or didn't even start isn't the teachers we had (we had the same ones), it's how my parents pushed me and made sure I always had my work done. It also took a little bit of desire on my part as well, but it's not always the teachers and schools. We just want to blame them.

If parents want their kids to succeed and the kids want to succeed then it falls on one person, the child. You can have the best teachers in the world but if the child isn't putting out the necessary effort they will never achieve. A lot of what the child does depends on how the parents push. I've said it over and over the difference in me and my friends who haven't finished college or didn't even start isn't the teachers we had (we had the same ones), it's how my parents pushed me and made sure I always had my work done. It also took a little bit of desire on my part as well, but it's not always the teachers and schools. We just want to blame them.

If your post is about HSers, then I have no problem with it.

If your post is considering, MS and up, I am not sure it is accurate.

If your post is including 1st graders, than I think it is wrong to think that every 1st grader or elementary age child is going to show up self-motivated.

It is much tougher to get rid of ineffective teachers, it takes some time through paperwork and observations unless they can be had on insubordination.

You are starting to see achievement gaps in areas where charter schools are more prevalent. Essentially as they have increased in areas, so have achievement gaps at those schools.

You can argue grades as well. Is it what the student does that counts or what they know? Pretty much what the state test wants.

If your post is about HSers, then I have no problem with it.

If your post is considering, MS and up, I am not sure it is accurate.

If your post is including 1st graders, than I think it is wrong to think that every 1st grader or elementary age child is going to show up self-motivated.

 

Parents have to help motivate in elementary school. I'm sure you teach, I come from a family of public school teachers. A lot of the kids in elementary teachers have a hard time with are kids who come from homes without rules. The parents place all the blame on the teachers but parents have to help motivate the kids and they have to help instill the discipline and respect for the rules that's needed. By hs though it does have to fall on the student to get the job done.

Parents have to help motivate in elementary school. I'm sure you teach, I come from a family of public school teachers. A lot of the kids in elementary teachers have a hard time with are kids who come from homes without rules. The parents place all the blame on the teachers but parents have to help motivate the kids and they have to help instill the discipline and respect for the rules that's needed. By hs though it does have to fall on the student to get the job done.

 

HS, I absolutely agree with you. Before HS, it takes a three-pronged effort. Student, Parent, Teacher

It is much tougher to get rid of ineffective teachers, it takes some time through paperwork and observations unless they can be had on insubordination.

You are starting to see achievement gaps in areas where charter schools are more prevalent. Essentially as they have increased in areas, so have achievement gaps at those schools.

You can argue grades as well. Is it what the student does that counts or what they know? Pretty much what the state test wants.

Grades is one of the more ineffective way to see a student's knowledge. I have had students that could tell me what I wanted them to know better than anyone in class. But they refused to do homework or assignments and were always close to failing.

 

A good number of times, A's can be attributed to doing homework/projects/assignments correctly. Not as much about knowledge.

There are great public schools everywhere. But as a whole, particularly in Math and Science, our nation's scores are sliding and dropouts and such are increasing.

 

Understood, and I think one thing this shows is that it is very difficult to get rid of ineffective teachers, because of tenure.

Teacher unions and so forth add to this. I think teacher unions are more concerned about the teachers more so than the quality of education that kids get.

 

For example, the hypocrisy of Cincinnati Public Schools and their teachers. Over 40% of CPS teachers send their kids to private schools. The teachers union in CPS is tough to deal with.

 

As a whole, getting rid of ineffective teachers compared to other professions pales in comparison.

 

In addition, I hear that this film will be a calling for people to join the teaching profession or become advocates.

 

Simply blaming socio-economic status, parental involvement is an easy excuse, and it does make it more difficult to educate, but all kids deserve to be educated by the best teachers.

Do you tit hink that teachers in under-performing schools have the same high expectations for their students as they do in more successful schools? Do you think teachers in under-performing schools assume ownership of issues as they do in other successful schools?

 

lbs, bravo for your position on this matter. While others on here spout almost to the letter the NEA position on teacher performance evaluation, you see as I do. There are many, many more factors involved in the "public" school mess than JUST parental involvement. YES, parental involvement has been clearly shown to be the single most important factor when it comes to MOST children's education, but what do you do with the children whose parents simply won't or can't get involved to the level necessary? Do we just chuck them in a pile and say, sorry, your mom/dad/guardian isn't involved so you get whatever is left of my efforts at educating you? Sorry, but we won't go above and beyond the call because you, a child, are not getting the support we think you need from home. That would account for approximately 50+ % of public school students nationwide. Are there good/great public schools out there? You betcha. But the role of public education is to educate EVERYBODY, not just those who are fortunate enough to have supportive parents. Reality is, there are fewer and fewer "supportive" parents and more and more unfunded, unfounded and unnecessary requirements placed on the educational system. But that doesn't excuse the fact that there are scores of teachers who have either lost their passion or are just simply mailing it in. There are many people who have been in education administration for decades who know how to evaluate teachers and teaching performance. It would not be based on who gets A's versus who gets D's as suggested. Like any good psychologist will tell you, admitting the problem is the first step toward fixing what ails you. Education needs to admit there are problems, own up to what they really are and begin getting the fixes in place. No, "Waiting for Superman" isn't a sweeping picture of public education across the board, but it is a clear-cut picture of the things that ail public education in general. Kinda scary to think about isn't it.

lbs, bravo for your position on this matter. While others on here spout almost to the letter the NEA position on teacher performance evaluation, you see as I do. There are many, many more factors involved in the "public" school mess than JUST parental involvement. YES, parental involvement has been clearly shown to be the single most important factor when it comes to MOST children's education, but what do you do with the children whose parents simply won't or can't get involved to the level necessary? Do we just chuck them in a pile and say, sorry, your mom/dad/guardian isn't involved so you get whatever is left of my efforts at educating you? Sorry, but we won't go above and beyond the call because you, a child, are not getting the support we think you need from home. That would account for approximately 50+ % of public school students nationwide. Are there good/great public schools out there? You betcha. But the role of public education is to educate EVERYBODY, not just those who are fortunate enough to have supportive parents. Reality is, there are fewer and fewer "supportive" parents and more and more unfunded, unfounded and unnecessary requirements placed on the educational system. But that doesn't excuse the fact that there are scores of teachers who have either lost their passion or are just simply mailing it in. There are many people who have been in education administration for decades who know how to evaluate teachers and teaching performance. It would not be based on who gets A's versus who gets D's as suggested. Like any good psychologist will tell you, admitting the problem is the first step toward fixing what ails you. Education needs to admit there are problems, own up to what they really are and begin getting the fixes in place. No, "Waiting for Superman" isn't a sweeping picture of public education across the board, but it is a clear-cut picture of the things that ail public education in general. Kinda scary to think about isn't it.

 

You've completely summarized my viewpoint on the "it's the parents' fault" cry. That issue is simply not going to go away so we might as well deal with it now and get a plan together. Too many people use that crutch and it's frankly irksome and tiresome.

Parents have to help motivate in elementary school. I'm sure you teach, I come from a family of public school teachers. A lot of the kids in elementary teachers have a hard time with are kids who come from homes without rules. The parents place all the blame on the teachers but parents have to help motivate the kids and they have to help instill the discipline and respect for the rules that's needed. By hs though it does have to fall on the student to get the job done.

Sure the student has to take some responsibility.

However, what about the kids who don't win the "parent lottery"?

Sure the student has to take some responsibility.

However, what about the kids who don't win the "parent lottery"?

 

They are usually the losers in all of this unfortunately. It's sad but true, 9 times out of 10 when one of the ladiesbballcoach's prongs are missing at the elementary age it's the parent.