July 13, 200917 yr It all boils back to whether this doctrine is that important to the saving activity of God and which sources will you trust to establish such a doctrine. :thumb: You are right. I guess, for me, I won't ever claim to be smart enough to know for sure what is important or not important enough to the "saving activity of God" to definitively say for sure. While I won't blindly follow the Catholic Church (or anyone), and while I know human (or group of humans) can know for sure the best path, I'd take the combined intellectual and theological prowess of the 2,000 year old Church (which I feel can be traced directly to Jesus and the 12 Apostles) then my own intellectually limited musings. I guess I just give the Church the benefit of the doubt while I research on my own.
July 13, 200917 yr I am, but I have zero desire to open the Catechism.... Without making any judgments- I wouldn't have the knowledge about you or your life to do so adequately- do you consider yourself Catholic in a more religious or cultural sense? If this question is too difficult, confusing, or personal to answer, then I understand.
July 13, 200917 yr I am, but I have zero desire to open the Catechism.... I don't blame you...it's not the most exciting read I've ever encountered.
July 13, 200917 yr Without making any judgments- I wouldn't have the knowledge about you or your life to do so adequately- do you consider yourself Catholic in a more religious or cultural sense? If this question is too difficult, confusing, or personal to answer, then I understand. That's a good question, and one I'd be happy to answer. I'll have to do so later though, as it may be a rather long answer, and I can't do so while working.
July 14, 200917 yr Would this article be of use to what you are trying to say? http://www.religion-cults.com/mary/coredeemer.htm I haven't been to the link, but I notice it is "religion-cults". Interesting choice of sources.
July 14, 200917 yr I haven't been to the link, but I notice it is "religion-cults". Interesting choice of sources. It was the first thing that came up on google. Really. As to the article, it was very heavily pro-Catholic doctrine as I recall. :thumb:
July 14, 200917 yr http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp I never knew that there was a consideration that Joesph was an old man. Is this book of James mentioned here the book of James in the Bible? As far as this point, it carries a lot of weight unless there is an understanding that those family members did not believe in Christ's divinity till later. "If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]). Good Read. Thanks for sharing. As far as the point of Mary, my question to all, does it really matter? Whether she was or she wasn't it bears no weight on accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior and He is the only way to Salvation. If she was a virgin, it does not change the Salvation Plan. If she had 147 children after Jesus, it does not change the Salvation Plan.
July 15, 200917 yr I never knew that there was a consideration that Joesph was an old man. Is this book of James mentioned here the book of James in the Bible? As far as this point, it carries a lot of weight unless there is an understanding that those family members did not believe in Christ's divinity till later. "If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]). Good Read. Thanks for sharing. As far as the point of Mary, my question to all, does it really matter? Whether she was or she wasn't it bears no weight on accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior and He is the only way to Salvation. If she was a virgin, it does not change the Salvation Plan. If she had 147 children after Jesus, it does not change the Salvation Plan. No. We talked about it earlier in the thread. This reference is to the Protoevangelium of James. Here's a simple link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_James Here's a translated text/synopsis: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm One of the more interesting aspects is the influence this document has on the origins of the Mary/Joseph story and yet it was rejected as canon and contains many problems in the text which include an ignorance of Jewish law, practice and custom. :thumb:
July 16, 200917 yr Without making any judgments- I wouldn't have the knowledge about you or your life to do so adequately- do you consider yourself Catholic in a more religious or cultural sense? If this question is too difficult, confusing, or personal to answer, then I understand. That's a good question, and one I'd be happy to answer. I'll have to do so later though, as it may be a rather long answer, and I can't do so while working. Sorry it's taken me so long to get around to this, but I'll do my best to answer. I really don't know how I would classify my Catholic faith. I know I believe Jesus is the son of God, and he died so we can live with God in Heaven. I've had way too many experiences in my life to think otherwise. I know I go to church every Sunday, but that I don't really participate the way the typical Catholic would. There are numerous issues (it seems more and more the older I get) that I disagree with the Catholic church on. I don't believe we can take the Bible as the end all be all truth, or as a literal account of Jesus' life. I don't believe one has to go to Church every week or be sentenced to hell. I don't believe pre-marital relations are some grave sin, as the Church does. I don't agree that priests shouldn't be allowed to marry, and I don't believe they have to be male. I think it is fine to hold the belief that Mary had other children after Jesus', and don't think it makes you less of a Catholic to believe so. I agree with quite a bit of the Catholic Church as well. I don't think disagreeing with the churches position on things has any bearing on your standing as a "good" Catholic. It's human nature to question things, and then choose which of those things to believe. I tend to think organized religion in general has serious flaws, and is quite messy as a whole. However, of all the choices out there, Catholicism seems to be the one that I'm most comfortable with. Now, I'm sure that really didn't address your question, maybe it did, but that's my view of my Catholic faith in a nutshell. :idunno:
July 16, 200917 yr I don't believe we can take the Bible as the end all be all truth, or as a literal account of Jesus' life. :idunno: What do we have to go by then? Did God leave it up to us to figure out how to please him and obtain salvation? I believe the bible is all we need and that it can be understood. I don't think the Lord would leave us in the dark. There is a way that seems right to man but leads to destruction. It is not in man to direct his own steps.
July 16, 200917 yr What do we have to go by then? Did God leave it up to us to figure out how to please him and obtain salvation? I believe the bible is all we need and that it can be understood. I don't think the Lord would leave us in the dark. There is a way that seems right to man but leads to destruction. It is not in man to direct his own steps. I see it more of a guide or road map if you will.
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