High school aged baseball game yesterday. Runner on 2nd. Pitcher in stretch. Coach has R2 intentionally take off for 3rd before the pitcher starts for home. Pitcher throws to 3rd. R2, seeing the pitcher is throwing to 3rd, immediately stops running at which point coach yells "balk." Umpire incorrectly agrees with him and gives him the balk.

 

While I was not at all happy with the umpire for not knowing the rule I was even more upset with the bush league tactics of a coach whose only goal was to get the balk called. He didn't know the rule but even if the rule was written as he thought it was, its a terrible bush league move.

What do you find so bush league about this? The coach having his player take off early in an attempt to get the pitcher to balk? (I don't find this bush league at all). The coach yelling 'balk' when the pitcher did not throw to 3B? Yes, the coach was wrong in that it is not a balk in that situation, but if he truly beleived it to be a balk (and I'll bet 80% of coaches at that level probably do), I think it's kind of a normal, instinctive reaction for a coach to yell out that he felt a balk occurred. Unless I'm missing something in your story, I don't see anything "bush league."

What do you find so bush league about this? The coach having his player take off early in an attempt to get the pitcher to balk? (I don't find this bush league at all). The coach yelling 'balk' when the pitcher did not throw to 3B? Yes, the coach was wrong in that it is not a balk in that situation, but if he truly beleived it to be a balk (and I'll bet 80% of coaches at that level probably do), I think it's kind of a normal, instinctive reaction for a coach to yell out that he felt a balk occurred. Unless I'm missing something in your story, I don't see anything "bush league."

 

I don't like coaches who try to take advantage of high school kids' lack of rule knowledge. I want the game decided by talent and not rules violations. Beat us because you're better.

I don't like coaches who try to take advantage of high school kids' lack of rule knowledge. I want the game decided by talent and not rules violations. Beat us because you're better.

 

Couldn't disagree more. That's part of good coaching and I consider it good strategy. Perhaps the other team's coach should be responsible for preparing his players to deal with such legitimate offensive strategies as delay steals, walk off steals, suicides bunts, first and third situations, etc...

 

So how do you define the most "talented" team? The best hitting team? Best pitching team? Best defensive team? Part of effective coaching is using your "talent" as effectively as possible. That may be different for each team. Perhaps effective baserunning is your team's strength. Perhaps it is defensive play and knowing how to deal with such situations as you outlined.

 

If the only thing that matters is having the most "talented" team win, why should teams like Lloyd, St. Henry, Bellevue, Ludlow, etc.. ever bother to take on the Cov Cath, Ryle, Beechwood, etc.. of the world? Clearly, their talent level will very rarely be on par with these teams.

 

But then again, perhaps every once in a while the "lesser" talented team plays above its head or uses some good baseball strategies to overcome and defeat the more talented team. It's part of the game. And, to me, it's a big part of the reason I love baseball.

 

Perhaps maybe there should be no rules. Let's just have our pitchers throw to the hitters and the team that hits the ball furthest is the winner.

 

Sorry, agree with you on most things, but not this one. Not even close.

My problem, fall ball...

My problem, fall ball...

 

Maybe. But the question wasn't directed specifically towards Fall Ball, but the question of whether a baserunning play such as this used by a coach of a high school team (or aged boys) was appropriate. I say it is. I'll buy that Fall Ball is generally more relaxed and you won't see things like this nearly as often, but I hardly see it falling into the "bush league" category.

Maybe. But the question wasn't directed specifically towards Fall Ball, but the question of whether a baserunning play such as this used by a coach of a high school team (or aged boys) was appropriate. I say it is. I'll buy that Fall Ball is generally more relaxed and you won't see things like this nearly as often, but I hardly see it falling into the "bush league" category.

 

The bush part of the play is yelling "balk" in the middle of it. However, because it is fall baseball it encompasses all of those types of plays. You know this but fall ball is for reps. More at bats, some extra innings on the hump...etc.

 

I have no idea who coaches this team but what are the chances that this fall coach has time to go over all of these scenarios with his kids. I think those are unfair expectations of the coach.

 

That play is for one thing and one thing only, to win the game. Is that the point of fall baseball?

The bush part of the play is yelling "balk" in the middle of it. However, because it is fall baseball it encompasses all of those types of plays. You know this but fall ball is for reps. More at bats, some extra innings on the hump...etc.

 

I have no idea who coaches this team but what are the chances that this fall coach has time to go over all of these scenarios with his kids. I think those are unfair expectations of the coach.

 

That play is for one thing and one thing only, to win the game. Is that the point of fall baseball?

 

I don't agree that a coach yelling "balk" in the middle of a play was necessarily bush league. It's something that happens spontaneously, almost instinctually, for most coaches. I've done it many times before myself - not trying to get a pitcher to balk, but "helping" make certain the umpire saw it . I don't think it was "bush league" on my part, that I am a "bush league" coach, or that the many other coaches I've seen do the same thing are "bush league."

 

Now if you're asking me CAN it be a bush league move by a coach, I'd say yes. Depends on his intent. From the scenario that was presented, I don't know enough to discern his intent.

 

With respect to it occurring in a Fall Ball game, yes, I'll agree that Fall Ball is a different (and more relaxed) environment. But is it also not at all possible that perhaps this is also the right environment to work on base-running strategies and skills? And while winning shouldn't be nearly as important in Fall Ball, I assure you that the kids out there are still trying to win nonetheless. (The kids playing high school aged Fall Ball are usually the ones whose only sport is baseball and take the game very seriously). In fact, wasn't the point of the original poster that this type of play is "bush league" because he would like to see the team with the "best talent" win? His point wasn't that winning wasn't important, only that the game should be won by the most talented team. So I guess winning was important to someone.

Did the pitcher step off before he threw to 3rd base? Because technically if he was in the stretch (righty) and threw to 3rd which was not occupied, it would be a balk correct? I always thought that the base had to be occupied if you made a pick off move from the rubber, but if you simply stepped off the rubber you could throw it anywhere.

I have no problem with that play but do not see it work very often. Most high school coaches will review this with their staff. It is much more common to have a 1st and 3rd situation and have the runner on 1st leave early. Often in this situation a pitcher who has not been coached up about this situation will not step off and may balk.

Fellas, it is not a balk. The rule states you can not throw to an unoccupied base UNLESS there is a play at that base. A pitcher can kick and step to third as if he's trying to pick a runner off, as long as the runner on second is heading to third.

 

You see the pitcher step off the rubber only to run toward the baserunner.

I love the baseball talk in the fall...Other than MLB Playoffs, baseball season was over months ago. But I suppose i will see my way out of this conversation, since i am just speaking to be heard.

Fellas, it is not a balk. The rule states you can not throw to an unoccupied base UNLESS there is a play at that base. A pitcher can kick and step to third as if he's trying to pick a runner off, as long as the runner on second is heading to third.

 

You see the pitcher step off the rubber only to run toward the baserunner.

 

You are going to have to show me that because I have seen it called a balk on many occasions. Additionally have seen coaches argue both ways.

Then the umpire doesn't know the rule...

 

Rule 8.05(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

Bush? Why? I don't get the point of this thread. At the HS level, the game is different. It does not matter what time of the year it is either. Fall Ball is the time to work on errors that are weak. Who cares if the coach called balk or not. Sounds to me like the coach may or may not have known the rule, but was trying to get the advantage for his team. Sounds to me like it was the umpire, not the coach who was in the wrong. But the coach was in no way wrong for creating the situation.