August 11, 200719 yr A reliever IMO cannot be judged by stats especially if they are a closer. Starting with Eck, too many relievers now get saves for coming into to start the 9th with upto a 3 run lead. Give up 2 runs - still get the save. The concept of the "fireman" no longer exists.
August 11, 200719 yr I don't consider Wagner one of the best of all time, plus getting a save can be easy at times, the stat is way overrated.
August 11, 200719 yr A reliever IMO cannot be judged by stats especially if they are a closer. Starting with Eck, too many relievers now get saves for coming into to start the 9th with upto a 3 run lead. Give up 2 runs - still get the save. The concept of the "fireman" no longer exists. Whether we like the save rule or not, the closer is part of the game and the best ones should be in the HOF.
August 11, 200719 yr Whether we like the save rule or not, the closer is part of the game and the best ones should be in the HOF. No argument. However basing it on the number of saves doesn't tell the entire story.
August 11, 200719 yr No argument. However basing it on the number of saves doesn't tell the entire story.That's my point, as a team like the Yankees....perennial 85± game winners, will get more opportunities for Mariano, than say a team who is 65 wins will. At the same time, you gave a perfect example of how a reliever can blow a lead, than retain a save and to me, not been effective or much less great, which is what we all are saying, is an HOF requirement.
August 11, 200719 yr No argument. However basing it on the number of saves doesn't tell the entire story. I agree, it has to be the entire body of work.
August 11, 200719 yr At the same time, you gave a perfect example of how a reliever can blow a lead, than retain a save and to me, not been effective or much less great, which is what we all are saying, is an HOF requirement. If they blow the lead then there is no save. But over the long haul most great closers to not blow parts of a lead. they shut the door when they come in. Closers that are not dominant would not be in the HOF.
August 11, 200719 yr I agree, it has to be the entire body of work.That's part of my question, what would that include. Saves RISP WHIP ERA Blown Saves W's/L's Innings K/BB ratio
August 11, 200719 yr That's part of my question, what would that include. Saves RISP WHIP ERA Blown Saves W's/L's Innings K/BB ratio all of thoses. Consistency throughout the years, Were they a dominant clsoer.
August 11, 200719 yr If they blow the lead then there is no save. But over the long haul most great closers to not blow parts of a lead. they shut the door when they come in. Closers that are not dominant would not be in the HOF. Sorry, I meant to say blow the save and then retain a win....:thumb:
August 11, 200719 yr Sorry, I meant to say blow the save and then retain a win....:thumb: I figured that after I read the post again.
August 11, 200719 yr If he keeps this scoreless streak up...and finishes with a monster year or two, he's in. This is what we call a jinx.
August 12, 200719 yr Stat geeks like to measure relievers simply by measuring the chances of their team winning the game when the reliever entered vs the chances of their team winning when they left the game. That makes pretty good sense. Did they help or harm the team. Period.
August 12, 200719 yr If he keeps it up at this pace and then has a couple of monstrous years then i think he gets in but it is going to be diffucult.
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