Oh, you guys are blowing this number thing out of proportion. You merely have to look at it from a Rush Limbaugh/far right Bush supporter point of view to realize that the 3500 killed are a scant number compared to numbers of KIA in Vietnam, Korea, and WWII. So just relax. Or better yet, show your support for the troops (many on their 2nd and 3rd deployments) by jumping into that Hummer H2 with the yellow ribbon and head on down to the corner Starbuck's for a Grande Mocha Latte.

How many Americans are being killed in our own country every year? :sssh:

That's why they call it "war."

:thumb: A sad but true part of war is people die. I don't like it either, but that is what happens in war.

The same way we have become numbed to the number of 3500 abortions being performed on a daily basis. Over 3500 DAILY of our youth are getting killed in the name of choice and parents not having the responsibility of a child.

:thumb: Excellent.

Have we become numb to the fact that our kids are being killed in these numbers thousands of miles away from home just like in the 1960's. In the 1960's we were told we had to fight to stop the spread of communism, but in reality we fought for Exxon and the other huge oil companies, could that be the reason our kids are dying now and not to stop the spread of radical Islam? A person just needs to read Mcnamera's book or Andersons biography on Johnson. While the youth in the sixties fought against war they are now exploiting war IMO

You know, this one always gets me. Well Springsteen#1, oil is one of the most important raw materials we have. Everyday we use hundreds of things that are made from oil or gas. If you really believe that's what were fighting for (I don't BTW), don't you think it's a pretty darn important resource to fight for?

 

Here's just a short list of products made with oil:

 

Air conditioners, ammonia, anti-histamines, antiseptics, artificial turf, asphalt, aspirin, balloons, bandages, boats, bottles, bras, bubble gum, butane, cameras, candles, car batteries, car bodies, carpet, cassette tapes, caulking, CDs, chewing gum, combs/brushes, computers, contacts, cortisone, crayons, cream, denture adhesives, deodorant, detergents, dice, dishwashing liquid, dresses, dryers, electric blankets, electrician’s tape, fertilisers, fishing lures, fishing nets, fishing rods, floor wax, footballs, glues, glycerin, golf balls, guitar strings, hair, hair colouring, hair curlers, hearing aids, heart valves, heating oil, house paint, ice chests, ink, insect repellent, insulation, jet fuel, life jackets, linoleum, lip balm, lipstick, loudspeakers, medicines, mops, motor oil, motorcycle helmets, movie film, nail polish, nylons, oil filters, paddles, paint brushes, paints, parachutes, paraffin, pens, perfumes, petroleum jelly, plastic chairs, plastic cups, plastic forks, plastic wrap, plastics, plywood adhesives, refrigerators, roller-skate wheels, roofing paper, rubber bands, rubber boots, rubber cement, rubbish bags, running shoes, saccharine, seals, shirts (non-cotton), shoe polish, shoes, shower curtains, solvents, solvents, spectacles, stereos, sweaters, table tennis balls, tape recorders, telephones, tennis rackets, thermos, tights, toilet seats, toners, toothpaste, transparencies, transparent tape, TV cabinets, typewriter/computer ribbons, tyres, umbrellas, upholstery, vaporisers, vitamin capsules, volleyballs, water pipes, water skis, wax, wax paper.

 

Do you use any of these things?

How many Americans are being killed in our own country every year? :sssh:

 

I guess by that rationale, the death toll from 9/11 wasn't that big of a deal either. I wish the Bush apologists who try to downplay the human cost of the Iraq war with these kinds of comparisons would have tried that line of reasoning on September 12, 2001.

Bush apologists

...aka realists.

I guess by that rationale, the death toll from 9/11 wasn't that big of a deal either. I wish the Bush apologists who try to downplay the human cost of the Iraq war with these kinds of comparisons would have tried that line of reasoning on September 12, 2001.

:sleep:

 

Why is everyone that disagrees with you a Bush apologist?

What is it about war you don't get? Did you think there would be no casualties in this war? Did you forget how Bush said this war would be a very different war and would have many battles and many battle grounds? Did you forget that he also said it would take a very long time? This is war, not a game, so why are you and so many like you constantly keeping score?

Honestly, the weakness of some Americans is sickening and exactly what gives those we are fighting hope and a feeling of success. I really thought the media and those who ignore the good we've done and the battles we've won would have learned a lesson from Viet Nam. I guess not.

...aka realists.

 

It is indeed ironic that supporters of the most out-of-touch, isolated-from-the-real-world President of recent memory would fancy themselves as 'realists'.

:sleep:

 

Why is everyone that disagrees with you a Bush apologist?

What is it about war you don't get? Did you think there would be no casualties in this war? Did you forget how Bush said this war would be a very different war and would have many battles and many battle grounds? Did you forget that he also said it would take a very long time? This is war, not a game, so why are you and so many like you constantly keeping score?

Honestly, the weakness of some Americans is sickening and exactly what gives those we are fighting hope and a feeling of success. I really thought the media and those who ignore the good we've done and the battles we've won would have learned a lesson from Viet Nam. I guess not.

 

You mention the 'weakness' of some Americans, but 'strength' is not a virtue when stubborly applied in the wrong direction. Indeed, I would argue that continued, enthusiastic support of Bush's failed Iraq policy may be a reflection of a failure to acknowledge facts at best and downright weak-mindedness at worst. This war is a complete squandering of our brave soldiers and Marines and hundreds of billions of dollars and has accomplished nothing to make our country safer in the world. The majority of Americans have finally seen past the Administration's veil of distortion and fearmongering. Even our own goverment holds this view--in April 2006, the National Intelligence Estimate (the definitive voice of the U.S. intelligence community) concluded that the Iraq war had become a primary recruitment tool for violent Islamic extremists. Each and every major reason for invading (the reasons that actually sold the American public on the idea of starting a war) has been proven to be wrong if not intentionally distorted. No WMDs. No imminent Iraqi threat to the U.S. No connection to September 11. No nuclear weapons program. We have not only squandered the good will we enjoyed in the immediate wake of 9/11, but we have isolated ourselves from the international community at a time when foreign intelligence networks are precisely what's needed to wage this type of war. The rest of the world has become wary of the U.S. because of our erratic, unilateral, even irrational policies.

 

How long does one have to suffer the consequences of a mistake before admitting it was a mistake? In the end, the only thing accomplished in this interminable Pandora's box we have opened is the elimination of a flea-ridden criminal in a spider hole.

You mention the 'weakness' of some Americans, but 'strength' is not a virtue when stubborly applied in the wrong direction. Indeed, I would argue that continued, enthusiastic support of Bush's failed Iraq policy may be a reflection of a failure to acknowledge facts at best and downright weak-mindedness at worst. This war is a complete squandering of our brave soldiers and Marines and hundreds of billions of dollars and has accomplished nothing to make our country safer in the world. The majority of Americans have finally seen past the Administration's veil of distortion and fearmongering. Even our own goverment holds this view--in April 2006, the National Intelligence Estimate (the definitive voice of the U.S. intelligence community) concluded that the Iraq war had become a primary recruitment tool for violent Islamic extremists. Each and every major reason for invading (the reasons that actually sold the American public on the idea of starting a war) has been proven to be wrong if not intentionally distorted. No WMDs. No imminent Iraqi threat to the U.S. No connection to September 11. No nuclear weapons program. We have not only squandered the good will we enjoyed in the immediate wake of 9/11, but we have isolated ourselves from the international community at a time when foreign intelligence networks are precisely what's needed to wage this type of war. The rest of the world has become wary of the U.S. because of our erratic, unilateral, even irrational policies.

 

How long does one have to suffer the consequences of a mistake before admitting it was a mistake? In the end, the only thing accomplished in this interminable Pandora's box we have opened is the elimination of a flea-ridden criminal in a spider hole.

So pull out, that's your answer? As I said, so many people have stuck their head in the sand and haven't learned a single lesson from Viet Nam. When are you going to get past your constant bellyaching about why we are there and realize that no longer matters? We are there now and the only thing to do is clean up the mess. Leaving isn’t going to do that. Leaving now will only cause the same thing to happen as did when we pulled out of Viet Nam, millions slaughtered. Is that what you want?

It’s almost comical how you call us Bush apologists and tell us we’re blind to the facts because of allegiance to him and yet the true fact is that your inane hatred for him is what has you completely blind when it comes to this war. I don’t like the fact that our troops are being killed any more than you do, but this is a war and your archaic reasoning of “just pull out” isn’t going to solve anything.

I also find it disquieting that so many like you actually think we have done anything to cause recruitment for violent Islamic extremists, that’s nothing more than leftist propaganda IMO. These people have hated us since long before you or I was ever born. They are taught from little on to hate us, that we are infidels, that we must die. I would much rather be fighting the extremists in Iraq, have them put the majority of their efforts over there rather then for them to putting their efforts against us here at home.

So pull out, that's your answer? As I said, so many people have stuck their head in the sand and haven't learned a single lesson from Viet Nam. When are you going to get past your constant bellyaching about why we are there and realize that no longer matters? We are there now and the only thing to do is clean up the mess. Leaving isn’t going to do that. Leaving now will only cause the same thing to happen as did when we pulled out of Viet Nam, millions slaughtered. Is that what you want?

It’s almost comical how you call us Bush apologists and tell us we’re blind to the facts because of allegiance to him and yet the true fact is that your inane hatred for him is what has you completely blind when it comes to this war. I don’t like the fact that our troops are being killed any more than you do, but this is a war and your archaic reasoning of “just pull out” isn’t going to solve anything.

I also find it disquieting that so many like you actually think we have done anything to cause recruitment for violent Islamic extremists, that’s nothing more than leftist propaganda IMO. These people have hated us since long before you or I was ever born. They are taught from little on to hate us, that we are infidels, that we must die. I would much rather be fighting the extremists in Iraq, have them put the majority of their efforts over there rather then for them to putting their efforts against us here at home.

:thumb:

 

I think the hatred for President Bush/Republicans comes first (for whatever reason they have). THAT overarching bias then causes people to find the bad in any situation that concerns President Bush.

 

I have yet to see any of his opponents find ANYTHING good that he has done/has tried to do. That alone is a tipoff. If I start off disliking you, no matter what you do I will find some fault in it.

 

We all have seen the long list of political opponents that advocated getting rid of Saddam, starting BEFORE president Bush ever took office. Now that President Bush is in charge (& might get political credit if things work out) there is NO WAY that he will be allowed to succeed.

 

I find this type of reversal to be quite dishonest. There is no use in reasoning/arguing with people like this.

So pull out, that's your answer? As I said, so many people have stuck their head in the sand and haven't learned a single lesson from Viet Nam. When are you going to get past your constant bellyaching about why we are there and realize that no longer matters? We are there now and the only thing to do is clean up the mess. Leaving isn’t going to do that. Leaving now will only cause the same thing to happen as did when we pulled out of Viet Nam, millions slaughtered. Is that what you want? .

 

 

I would argue that the only ones who didn't learn a single lesson from Vietnam is our country's 'leadership', who have put us in a situation just like Vietnam, where our overwhelming military might has been neutered through the use of guerilla tactics and civilian-clothed combatants. As far as the millions slaughtered remark, how long do we stay and hold together a broken country, long enough for a million of our people to get slaughtered? No, I reject the logic in the ever-twisting-and-turning rationale for this war that says we must stay indefinitely in a place where we're not wanted because we have broken Iraq. There are alternatives other than the extreme positions of stay forever and leave tomorrow. But this President seems bent on the stay forever idea.

 

 

It’s almost comical how you call us Bush apologists and tell us we’re blind to the facts because of allegiance to him and yet the true fact is that your inane hatred for him is what has you completely blind when it comes to this war. I don’t like the fact that our troops are being killed any more than you do, but this is a war and your archaic reasoning of “just pull out” isn’t going to solve anything.

 

 

I don't have hatred for Bush. I voted for him in 2000 (regrettably, in retrospect). I just think he is utterly unfit for the office. Arrogance and incompetence are a devastating combination. Add to that bravado and you have summarized the characteristics that describe Mr. Bush's ruinous presidency.

 

 

I also find it disquieting that so many like you actually think we have done anything to cause recruitment for violent Islamic extremists, that’s nothing more than leftist propaganda IMO. These people have hated us since long before you or I was ever born. They are taught from little on to hate us, that we are infidels, that we must die. I would much rather be fighting the extremists in Iraq, have them put the majority of their efforts over there rather then for them to putting their efforts against us here at home.

 

 

If that's leftist propaganda, then the majority of U.S. intelligence professionals (the same people who advise the President on matters of terrorism, mind you) must be leftist kooks, because that was precisely their conclusion in the April 2006 National Intelligence Estimate. I'm not making this stuff up.

H, I'm just simply going to agree to disagree with you. There's no getting through to you, besides, if I agree with you then we'll both be wrong.

H, I'm just simply going to agree to disagree with you. There's no getting through to you, besides, if I agree with you then we'll both be wrong.

 

Nice avatar.

 

There, we can agree on something.

Nice avatar.

 

There, we can agree on something.

:lol: :thumb: