But likewise, can't those people who disagree with those who protest against the war also voice our sentiments? Or are we no longer living in a democracy?

I have no problem with anyone voicing their sentiments. I do have a problem with the labeling of either side of the other (warmonger, naieve, etc.)

 

The points people have made about the anti war protesters are valid ones: the protesting emboldens and encourages the insurgents to keep at it; the protesting causes the Iraqi citizens to question whether they should support our efforts because we may pull out soon as a result of the lack of support and thus the Iraqis don't fully help and cooperate with us; and it hurts the morale of our troops. While you obviously have the right to oppose the war, with that right comes a responsibility to exercise that right prudently. If more anti's (particularly the Democratic leadership) took the position that they oppose the war, but state that we are in it to win it and will not and cannot quit until we have stabilized Iraq, they would be registering their opposition but at the same time not encouraging the insurgents, not cause the Iraqi people to question if we will be there to finish the job, and not negatively affect our troops morale. In other words they could express their opposition in a more responsible manner.

 

Here's my history on this subject:

 

(Tried to drag up old threads from back in the day, but they aren't there anymore)

 

1) I vehemently opposed the decision to go into Iraq BEFORE the "glorious" shock and awe occured. I said then that we did not know what we were getting into and that I felt we would not be "in and out" as so many assumed. I said then that we'd be in a quagmire that we'd be decades repairing.

 

 

2) I am on record as knowing that we cannot leave now for the following reasons:

A) We need to help Iraq rebuild. We tore it apart, it's our responsibility to help them put it back together.

 

B) We leave now, we leave a country in the midst of not only a civil war of citizen factions, but vulnerable to the outside advances of other factions who'd seek to use the instability to gain an advantage for their own cause (ie Al Queda, et al; Iran)

 

 

The insurgents have studied our history and know it well. Americans as of late have lost their will to fight prolonged wars and its not because of cowardice, rather I believe its because Americans value life very highly and it truly pains us to see our young men and women coming home in body bags. As a result we start re-examining the reasons why that is happening. Add to that the fact that even prior to the war, Bush had at best the support of only 50% of the people in this country, which made it even easier for people to start second guessing his decision to invade Iraq. If people don't think the insurgents understand that and will take advantage of it, they are sadly mistaken.

 

You assume that those who oppose the action Bush took getting us into this war are naive. I am in the camp of those who do not need to re-examine anything. I hate that it is so, but I called this one before we went there.

 

 

And if you think I am trying to bully you, then I am somewhat offended and surprised that you have that opinion of me.

 

Don't take it personally...you're a part of a group.

 

Seriously, the comment isn't to single anyone out, but to express how I feel when discussing this issue with a collective group. Individually, some may show respect and listen to my opinions without scathing & sarcastic comments regarding my apparent lack of mental acuity, comments that I don't support our troops, blithe assumption that I'm a "Bush hater", therefore I'm blinded to all reason.

I don't think anyone has tried to deny anyone the right to protest the war if they choose to BUT if you become the very public face of that protest then you have to expect some backlash. Couple that with Sheehan's visits to Venezuela where she praised Hugo Chavez (who just shut down a newspaper because they opposed him, that's real suppression of freedom) and then her final statement that she didn't like America any more and IMVHO she has become a legitimate target for all of the criticism she has received. As I have said many many time the freedom of speech does not mean speech with no bad consequences.

 

I can agree with pretty much most of what you say.

Before I ask this question, let me explain that I am not seeking an argument or trying to force my point of view on anyone, although if I get the answer I expect my follow up questions may seem that way.

 

What does it mean when one says "I am against the war but support the troops?" Taking this statement at face value, it seems to me as a reference to the shamefull way our soldiers were treated upon returning from Vietnam, i.e. being called baby killers and spit upon. If the statement means you are opposed to that sort of attitude toward our troops then I don't really give much credit for that. To me, that is just human decency and should be the norm regardless of one's opinion of the war.

 

This is something I've considered since the saying became popular soon after the war started. Someone please set me straight on this. RK, please don't think I'm picking on you, I've read enough of your posts to be of the opinion that you are one of the nicest people on this site. You just happened to be the last one to make the statement.

 

Troops are employees. They do what their job requires, regardless of their personal feelings. I realize most of our troops have no reservations about the reasons they're there, and they chose to join the armed services for the reason that the want to make a difference. I don't fault that.

 

My criticism is based upon the fact that I have disagreed with the current administration taking this action from the outset, because I didn't and don't believe that the reasons we're there are the correct ones.

Ok so if one can't protest war in America, are we still living in a democracy?

 

What should those who are opposed to this war, (with good reason, I might add) to do?

 

We should shut up and let those who "know what they're doing" run amok?

 

One step away from communisim....

You miss the point. You can and have the right to. It's just that you're not doing a thing to help the troops and all you're doing in the end is ebolding the enemy. It's up to the individual to choose what they think is right.

Re: RM's post #48. So you are saying that the "I support the troops" statement simply means you don't consider the war to be their fault? I hope I'm not oversimplifying it, but I was hoping for something a little more profound. Again, not being critical but trying to understand why "But I support the troops" statement is so often tacked on to the "I'm against the war" statement.

 

My views on the war are not all that different from what you responded to LN's excellent post on most of the issues concerning Iraq so the following is not directed at you although I would value your opinion.

 

Having the benefit of hindsight, it is my opinion the invasion was probably a mistake. Probably. However, it did happen and now we must deal with it. It seems most politicians (and their backers) seem to fall into one of two categories :Those who think we should cut and run and be unconcerned about the aftermath because we can blame the whole thing on Bush anyway, and those who supported the war from the beginning and want to "stay the course". Where Rockmom and I seem to differ is that I think we (Americans as a whole) should save assigning blame to another time, get past it and present a united front to our enemies. Al Qaida and the insurgency know they can't defeat our military with roadside bombs and ambushes. But our history shows that they can break our will to fight, the goal of terrorism. There is a time for protest and a time to fight and each has it's place. To really show support to our troops, I say "go get 'em guys, we're behind you all the way".

The sad thing is, that's what people to want people who are not for this war to feel like. IMO, it's bullying. I'm firmly convinced, and believe deeply, that this war in Iraq was, is and will continue to be wrong.

Why is it bullying on one side and not the other. She had a right to do what she did. Those of us who are offended by her self-serving actions have a right to voice our displeasure. See? It all works out!

 

For those that say we shouldn't be fighting this war -- you're wrong. It hasn't gone perfectly; but no war ever does. It has been tough; but I believe the goals (if not their execution) are worthwhile. I'll leave it at that, since it's been discussed in this forum a million times.

Re: RM's post #48. So you are saying that the "I support the troops" statement simply means you don't consider the war to be their fault? I hope I'm not oversimplifying it, but I was hoping for something a little more profound. Again, not being critical but trying to understand why "But I support the troops" statement is so often tacked on to the "I'm against the war" statement.

 

My views on the war are not all that different from what you responded to LN's excellent post on most of the issues concerning Iraq so the following is not directed at you although I would value your opinion.

 

Having the benefit of hindsight, it is my opinion the invasion was probably a mistake. Probably. However, it did happen and now we must deal with it. It seems most politicians (and their backers) seem to fall into one of two categories :Those who think we should cut and run and be unconcerned about the aftermath because we can blame the whole thing on Bush anyway, and those who supported the war from the beginning and want to "stay the course". Where Rockmom and I seem to differ is that I think we (Americans as a whole) should save assigning blame to another time, get past it and present a united front to our enemies. Al Qaida and the insurgency know they can't defeat our military with roadside bombs and ambushes. But our history shows that they can break our will to fight, the goal of terrorism. There is a time for protest and a time to fight and each has it's place. To really show support to our troops, I say "go get 'em guys, we're behind you all the way".

 

I hate having the last post on page 1 of 2 page thread. No one ever sees it. :lol:

I hate having the last post on page 1 of 2 page thread. No one ever sees it. :lol:

I hate having the first post on page 2; because everybody sees it!

I hate having the first post on page 2; because everybody sees it!

 

 

Yes, I sense your shyness by your post count. :lol:

Yes, I sense your shyness by your post count. :lol:

:p

 

 

Ask me how many of those were in P&R.

 

About...three.

Re: RM's post #48. So you are saying that the "I support the troops" statement simply means you don't consider the war to be their fault? I hope I'm not oversimplifying it, but I was hoping for something a little more profound. Again, not being critical but trying to understand why "But I support the troops" statement is so often tacked on to the "I'm against the war" statement.

No the war is not their fault. It's not my fault, and it's not your fault. I don't tack on the "I support the troops" lightly. And, I am not anit-WAR, per se. I fully supported our administrations reasons for going into Afghanistan, for instance. I fully supported our role in Desert Storm.

 

 

My views on the war are not all that different from what you responded to LN's excellent post on most of the issues concerning Iraq so the following is not directed at you although I would value your opinion.

 

Having the benefit of hindsight, it is my opinion the invasion was probably a mistake. Probably. However, it did happen and now we must deal with it. It seems most politicians (and their backers) seem to fall into one of two categories :Those who think we should cut and run and be unconcerned about the aftermath because we can blame the whole thing on Bush anyway, and those who supported the war from the beginning and want to "stay the course". Where Rockmom and I seem to differ is that I think we (Americans as a whole) should save assigning blame to another time, get past it and present a united front to our enemies. Al Qaida and the insurgency know they can't defeat our military with roadside bombs and ambushes. But our history shows that they can break our will to fight, the goal of terrorism. There is a time for protest and a time to fight and each has it's place. To really show support to our troops, I say "go get 'em guys, we're behind you all the way".

 

I guess my position is this:

 

I have many, MANY reasons I don't feel we should be in Iraq. Those reasons have not changed since BEFORE we went in. Everything I feared has become reality, depsite the many people telling me I was wrong then, and that I'm wrong now.

 

You and I differ in what we feel is the "right" thing to do. If the "right" thing had been done, neither of us would be defending our positions in the "support the war vs. support the troops" debate with regard to Iraq, IMO.

You miss the point. You can and have the right to. It's just that you're not doing a thing to help the troops and all you're doing in the end is ebolding the enemy. It's up to the individual to choose what they think is right.

 

 

IMO, I missed no points whatsoever. I can read the very pointed implication that I am somehow subversive and supporting the opposition by not falling in line to chant the mantra of those who feel that this war in Iraq is the right war.

:p

 

 

Ask me how many of those were in P&R.

 

About...three.

 

It is intimidating to try to converse with some of the people who post in here. I would never try to match wits with Fastbreak or Hearsay and there is no way I could provide enough links to keep Jim Shue happy.

 

Could someone turn off the threadjacker alarm now, please?

Why is it bullying on one side and not the other. She had a right to do what she did. Those of us who are offended by her self-serving actions have a right to voice our displeasure. See? It all works out!

 

For those that say we shouldn't be fighting this war -- you're wrong. It hasn't gone perfectly; but no war ever does. It has been tough; but I believe the goals (if not their execution) are worthwhile. I'll leave it at that, since it's been discussed in this forum a million times.

 

 

And, I respect your opinion greatly, but still deeply and firmly believe that I and those with me are NOT the one's who are wrong. :thumb:

And, I respect your opinion greatly, but still deeply and firmly believe that I and those with me are NOT the one's who are wrong. :thumb:

Okay. Let's arm wrestle -- winner gets to be right.