Not to belittle this conversation at all but Belfry's comment about people not understanding what you are saying and trying to tell them reminds me of my job of teaching teenagers.

 

We had a discussion this morning about the dangers of drugs as a person overdosed on heroin last night. And as I pleaded with them to stay away from drugs, they looked at me like I was speaking in tongues.

 

You mean you can't speak teenagese?

 

Or is it teenagic, or teenagish, teenagan...

You mean you can't speak teenagese?

 

Or is it teenagic, or teenagish, teenagan...

or stupidese or idiocracity or dumbish:D

 

I try. The Lord knows I try.

The following two posts come as close to explaining my POV on this topic as any:

List of gifts from...

Romans 12:6-8 --> prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, leading, mercy

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 --> wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretations of tongues

Ephesians 4:11 --> apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers

 

I've read nothing in the Bible that leads me to the conclusion than any of these gifts have passed away. I believe that they still exist and are still bestowed upon believers today as the Holy Spirit sees fit.

 

My understanding of 1 Corinthians 13, briefly, is that Paul is stating the superiority of love over all other gifts from God and that without love everything else is meaningless. As for chapter 14, my understanding is that he's making the point that there are gifts that are more beneficial to the body as a whole than tongues, and thus they are better and more desirable. I also think he is instructing in the proper use of tongues (and cautioning about its misuse).

 

When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

 

There was clearly a point following Pentecost, where the immediate impact of the gift of tongues slipped from every man hearing in their own language, to the effect of jibberish to those in each local church body, thus the need for an interpreter. Paul says nothing about the need for the gift becoming obsolete, or worse, it not being a gift at all. He refers to the tongues of men and angels. He makes it clear that there is a version of the gift that may indeed seem incomprehensible to those who hear it without a spiritually gifted interpreter. For this reason, I am convinced that this gift, along with all the others outlined remain alive and active to this day. The fact that we (or science) cannot adequately understand and explain them has nothing to do with their spiritual validity and value.

 

Medical science has yet to provide an adequate explanation for our appendix, and yet we’re all born with one. Either you believe in evolution, and feel it is a vestige of something once useful, or you believe that God created us and it has a purpose we simply do not fully understand. The list of bodily features and organs once believed to be “vestigial” only to be discovered to indeed have necessary functions is long and interesting to explore. Similarly, it would be ill advised to relegate the gift of tongues as a vestigial gift.

 

Romans 8:26 states: “In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.”

 

This sums up my take on the gift of tongues as a personal conduit with the Holy Spirit. Clearly, this is not something for the whole church body, without appropriate interpretation, but it does not diminish its value as an individual and deeply spiritual way to commune in prayer with the Spirit of God.

 

The Bible instructs that God is everlasting and unchanging, to suggest that certain fruit or gifts of His Spirit are no longer alive and active simply because we cannot understand them or see the practical use for them says more about us than about the validity of the gifts.

 

Science and logic are awesome tools, but they are limited by our own finite intellects and wisdom. Do not let your faith be diminished by the weakness of human reasoning.

Jesus ever mentions Tongues in the way we are talking about? He does in Mark 16:17 There he is speaking to the eleven...He said unto them..."Go unto all the world and preach the good news to all creation"(skipping to tongues) "they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes, they will drive out demons in my name, they will drink deadly poison it will not harm them, they will heal the sick, the new tongues goes with go unto all nations and have the power to converse in their native tongues.

 

People if Jesus wanted us to pray or praise God in a unreconize tongue he would have said so. There is no need for it. Speak in your own language and God will hear you. There is no need for the Jibberish. Like I said if you feel better doing it, its no sin but people will not understand you.

Jesus (n)ever mentions Tongues in the way we are talking about? He does in Mark 16:17 There he is speaking to the eleven...He said unto them..."Go unto all the world and preach the good news to all creation"(skipping to tongues) "they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes, they will drive out demons in my name, they will drink deadly poison it will not harm them, they will heal the sick, the new tongues goes with go unto all nations and have the power to converse in their native tongues.

 

People if Jesus wanted us to pray or praise God in a unrecognized tongue he would have said so. There is no need for it. Speak in your own language and God will hear you. There is no need for the jibberish. Like I said if you feel better doing it, its no sin but people will not understand you.

I promise I’m not seeking to argue merely for the sake of argument. I sincerely feel there is a valid issue to be understood here.

 

I have a problem with your statement, “People if Jesus wanted us to pray or praise God in a unrecognized tongue he would have said so. There is no need for it.” This reasoning would indicate that we should just toss out Acts through Jude and cut Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Revelations down to the words in red.

 

The idea that, “If Jesus didn’t say it, we don’t need to believe it” is puzzling to me. Why did God reveal himself and His Word to the Old Testament prophets? Why would Jesus bother to teach and train Disciples if what they have to say is ultimately irrelevant? Why should we pay any attention to the words of Paul, when he never spent any time in the physical presence of Jesus during His time on earth?

 

There are many things from flying in an airplane to homosexuality that Jesus did not directly teach about specifically, and yet we do fly on airplanes, and many Christians seem to feel there is something inappropriate with the practice of homosexuality based upon Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 6:9 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders."

 

You cut straight to the connection of tongues with the Great Commission, and while I will agree that the ability to speak intelligibly in multiple languages would have a value and purpose within this scenario, I submit that there is a value and purpose that goes beyond evangelism alone… a purpose Paul acknowledges and even discusses at some length in various passages.

 

With all due respect, if we examine the verses you omitted from your quote of Mark Chapter 16, we will find that the gifts mentioned are more about the “signs” that will “accompany those who believe” than they are merely tools for evangelism. 14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. 15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

 

I don't think the verse you reference is all that clear about the specifics of "new tongues" other than they will occur as a sign of “those who believe.” If anything, it could be argued that a "new tongue" would indicate a language not previously known... (an "old tongue".)

 

To follow your reasoning, my question is, if Jesus said, “17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." why do we not see more, (if not all) true Christians doing the things Jesus said they would do in His name?

 

I see nowhere that Jesus limits His statement, “And these signs will accompany those who believe” to the apostles in the first century. The way the passage reads, He is referring to all of us, “who believe.” Does this mean that those of us not doing these things are not true believers?

 

It would seem to me to be unwise to limit God, or to question His clearly stated Word... whether stated directly by Jesus Christ, or through His prophets and disciples. :thumb:

Just a couple more thoughts...

 

1. I've watched a certain preacher on television before and, in the midst of his message, he broke into speaking in tongues. It sounded like "hobba dobba mick sabatta lobba..."...he offered no interpretation and continued on with his message as if it never happened. Personally, I'm thinking what was the point. Nobody knows what it meant...what did anyone get out of that? It sounded like jibberish...maybe it was a real foreign language, maybe it was tongues, maybe it was made up...I don't know. I have my doubts about the validity of it though...I wonder why God would want someone to do that when no one is going to understand it, and probably not get anything out of it. Obviously, I could be wrong and there may be people that receive a real blessing from that, or that are given the ability to interpret it. I don't know. I'll just say that I have my doubts.

 

2. Theoretically, if I were in deep prayer and communication with God, and all at once, I was overcome and controlled by the Spirit to the point where I started praying/speaking in an unknown tongue...then for me personally, that would be a huge blessing. I think would come away from that feeling like I had been very close to God and touched by Him. That's never happened to me, but I've heard stories from people that have had it happen...so I believe it's possible. I think those experiences fall in line with what Paul is writing about in Romans 8:26 and when he says tongues are for the edification of the individual and not the whole body of believers.

 

I think my view is pretty close, if not identical, to Fastbreaks. I don't think any Spiritual gifts were intended only for the Apostles (except maybe the gift of being an apostle... ...I mean that one is obvious). And, I don't think any of the gifts have ceased. I think they are all active and present today at the discretion of the Spirit.

Fastbreak, I know what you mean, I don't go in great detail because from what I've been told to make your point keep it short and simple. And some things you wrote about the red letters...well you are trying to make your point. Read the last verse in John. Here it is...Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even

the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

 

I'm not going to rehash all that you wrote, you made your point and you are entitled, I chose not to believe in the gifts that were given to the Apostles that was meant only for them. The folks who believe in Tongues must also believe in the power to heal, well let them go to Children's Hospital and heal some kids, they can't they are not Apostles.

 

All scripture is God breathed..2nd Timothy 3:16 We cannot Pick and Choose scripture. I'll stand by my last post where I also said its not a Salvation issue, but whether you want to use the Tongues or not. I say not and thats OK, if we ever meet I'll wash your feet my brother.

But Fastbreak, if it doesn't explicitly say it in the Bible, then it didn't happen. I can only think of a half dozen times where Jesus ate anything. That probably explains him not using the bathroom for 33 years.

I have heard stories of missionaries ministering to a tribal people, speaking english but being heard by the tribal members in their own language. I don't want to put God in a box, everytime I do He jumps out and shows me that He is God and I am not. Tongues as a personal prayer language - not so sure about that. Tongues used to minister God's word and deliver the Gospel of Christ to a people that have no other way to hear it - absolutely. The main thing you have to ask is what is the purpose? Does this bring glory to God or man? Does this enhance the cause for Christ or hinder it? Is it for selfish gain or to equip the saints for service? Interesting topic.

Ponder, welcome to the site, nice comments. When you used the word "Hinder" Paul tells the church (who really wanted these gifts, but didn't have them, they were not Apostles) to be careful when speaking "because you want to be understood by others when you pray"..."and if no one is there to help be silent". We know some Ponders, are you a Ponder?

But Fastbreak, if it doesn't explicitly say it in the Bible, then it didn't happen. I can only think of a half dozen times where Jesus ate anything. That probably explains him not using the bathroom for 33 years.

 

He did allude to that process when He was teaching about what goes in to a man's mouth does not defile, it's what comes out of his mouth...so He was obviously aware of the process. :lol:

Ponder, welcome to the site, nice comments. When you used the word "Hinder" Paul tells the church (who really wanted these gifts, but didn't have them, they were not Apostles) to be careful when speaking "because you want to be understood by others when you pray"..."and if no one is there to help be silent". We know some Ponders, are you a Ponder?

 

What particular verses from the Bible lead you to believe this way?

Sure will, thats my saying. I use Scripture not Larry's think so's.

 

John 15:3... Ye know him. the Spirit of Truth for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you. The Last verse he distinguishes them (Apostles) from others. They (others) cannot recieve the Spirit, but the Spirit was already with them and was to come into their hearts in greater fullness as it did in Acts on the day of Penecost.

 

Acts 1 and 2 is when they recieve the gifts to heal, miriacles, and so forth.

Acts 3 Peter now heals a crippled beggar, couldn't before could he?

Acts 11:17 As Peter begins to speak the Spirit came on and he remembered what the Lord had said..."John Baptized with water, but you will be Baptized with the Holy Spirit. So God gave us the same Gift as he gave us".

 

1st Peter 4:10 "Each one of us should used whatever Gift he has recieved to serve others".

 

Ephesians 4:11 It was he who gave some to be Apostles (there is that word again)some to be prophets, some to be Evangelists, Pastors, teachers, to prepare others for works of service".

 

Romans 12:6 (this is what you and I have) We have different gifts, according to the Grace given to us. If a Man's gift is prophesying let him use it in proportation to his faith, If it is serving, let him serve, teaching let him teach, encourageing let him, contributing let him, leadership, showing mercy, let him.

 

Romans 11 :29 Gods call and Gifts are irrevocable.

 

James 1:17 Gifts from the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Look them up we also have them.

 

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit where speaking in a tongue (language), healing, Miracles were for the Apostles only. There are no Apostles today and those Gifts have ceased.

Also 5...I didn't want to repeat myself so I used other verses, look up what Paul says about the Corinthian Church chapter 14 that I covered earlier.

Again, what I believe is always found in scripture.

Thanks for the welcome AL - I am not sure what you mean by "are you a ponder." One of my hobbies is water gardening (ponds) and I live in Kentucky - hence the name. I have two ponds with koi and goldfish. Let me know what you meant and I look forward to more discussions.