February 9, 200719 yr The fact that Barry Larkin had a higher BA, higher OBP, and more stolen bases than Ripken or Yount is apparently a mute factor. IMO that's pretty good stuff. It's swell -- sure. However, the raw numbers aren't close. Looking at the batting average, for example, doesn't point out the fact that there were huge chunks of time that Larkin couldn't help his team because of the malady-of-the-day. His BA and OBP were very good. Stolen bases is a moot point because Cal and Robin weren't base-stealers. Would you rather have a guy that had 100 hits in a season and batted .275 or a guy that went 40 - 125 and hit .320? Yeah, me too.
February 9, 200719 yr The fact that Barry Larkin had a higher BA, higher OBP, and more stolen bases than Ripken or Yount is apparently a mute factor. IMO that's pretty good stuff. That's the key part of the post. Pretty good, not great. If you want to compare that Fernandez has a higher BA, and OBP than Yount and is higher in all 3 catagories than Ripken. Alan Trammell beats them in every catagory too except for Yount's steals. The key difference is that neither Larkin nor Trammell have over 3000 hits or played in 2632 straight games. Lots of people have career batting averages better than Ripken's or Yount's, lots of people have higher on base percentages, lots have more stolen bases. Very, very few have over 3100 hits--thats the difference in someone being in the Hall of Fame. It isn't called the Hall of Very Good.
February 9, 200719 yr It's swell -- sure. However, the raw numbers aren't close. Looking at the batting average, for example, doesn't point out the fact that there were huge chunks of time that Larkin couldn't help his team because of the malady-of-the-day. His BA and OBP were very good. Stolen bases is a moot point because Cal and Robin weren't base-stealers. Would you rather have a guy that had 100 hits in a season and batted .275 or a guy that went 40 - 125 and hit .320? Yeah, me too. Why not? Were they not fast enough, because Larkin stole quite a few bases and IMO that's pretty important. The last statement has me perplexed? 275.... Is that Yount or Ripken's career average? Then the 40 125 and 320 has to be Ripken's best year.
February 9, 200719 yr That's the key part of the post. Pretty good, not great. If you want to compare that Fernandez has a higher BA, and OBP than Yount and is higher in all 3 catagories than Ripken. Alan Trammell beats them in every catagory too except for Yount's steals. The key difference is that neither Larkin nor Trammell have over 3000 hits or played in 2632 straight games. Lots of people have career batting averages better than Ripken's or Yount's, lots of people have higher on base percentages, lots have more stolen bases. Very, very few have over 3100 hits--thats the difference in someone being in the Hall of Fame. It isn't called the Hall of Very Good. I am aware of that. Do me a favor and look at the HOF SS's that are enshrined and tell me it isn't the HOVG. Larkin's numbers DESTROY well over half of them. Compare them to Smith's numbers and see what you come up with.
February 9, 200719 yr You said it not me, but I see your arguement (same as HSSB's biggest concern and Strkie3's biggest concern). The stats that I posted show Larkin's games played to be higher than Fernandez. I meant that Fernandez was able to play more games per season since he would only have to averaged 11 games per season for 2 years to equal Larkin's total.
February 9, 200719 yr Okay, you didn't like the Trammell comparison, and you didn't like the Tony Fernandez comparison, so how about this one: Games: Larkin -- 2,180 "?" -- 2,390 Runs: Larkin -- 1,329 "?" -- 1,386 Hits: Larkin -- 2,340 "?" -- 2,369 2B: Larkin -- 441 "?" -- 420 3B: Larkin -- 76 "?" -- 65 Home Runs: Larkin -- 198 "?" -- 244 RBI: Larkin -- 960 "?" -- 1,084 BB: Larkin -- 939 "?" -- 1,197 SO: Larkin -- 817 "?" -- 1,099 Stolen Base: Larkin -- 379 "?" -- 143 Batting Average: Larkin -- .295 "?" -- .276 On-Base: Larkin -- .371 "?" -- .363 They played in exactly the same amount of seasons. Can we agree that while you can give an edge to Barry, that those are pretty close?
February 9, 200719 yr The stats that I posted show Larkin's games played to be higher than Fernandez. I meant that Fernandez was able to play more games per season since he would only have to averaged 11 games per season for 2 years to equal Larkin's total. :thumb:
February 9, 200719 yr Why not? Were they not fast enough, because Larkin stole quite a few bases and IMO that's pretty important. The last statement has me perplexed? 275.... Is that Yount or Ripken's career average? Then the 40 125 and 320 has to be Ripken's best year. I made them up, just asking which you'd rather have. A slightly better average with fewer hits or a lot more hits and a worse average -- that is it.
February 9, 200719 yr Okay, you didn't like the Trammell comparison, and you didn't like the Tony Fernandez comparison, so how about this one: Games: Larkin -- 2,180 "?" -- 2,390 Runs: Larkin -- 1,329 "?" -- 1,386 Hits: Larkin -- 2,340 "?" -- 2,369 2B: Larkin -- 441 "?" -- 420 3B: Larkin -- 76 "?" -- 65 Home Runs: Larkin -- 198 "?" -- 244 RBI: Larkin -- 960 "?" -- 1,084 BB: Larkin -- 939 "?" -- 1,197 SO: Larkin -- 817 "?" -- 1,099 Stolen Base: Larkin -- 379 "?" -- 143 Batting Average: Larkin -- .295 "?" -- .276 On-Base: Larkin -- .371 "?" -- .363 They played in exactly the same amount of seasons. Can we agree that while you can give an edge to Barry, that those are pretty close? I think we are sitting here comparing him to HOF's and he's better than some and not as good as some. Now we're comparing him to non-HOFs and he keeps coming out slight above them.......HMMMMMMM I think he's on the fence!!!!
February 9, 200719 yr I am aware of that. Do me a favor and look at the HOF SS's that are enshrined and tell me it isn't the HOVG. Larkin's numbers DESTROY well over half of them. Compare them to Smith's numbers and see what you come up with.In the HOF players, that in your words Larkin "destroys", how many played his number of years and in what era. Here is a summary of my opinion, after reviewing the evidence submitted, my personally watching him, comparison of stats and BGP info. Is Larkin HOF electible....NO, lack of offensive accomplishment, as a direct result of games missed.
February 9, 200719 yr I made them up, just asking which you'd rather have. A slightly better average with fewer hits or a lot more hits and a worse average -- that is it. When Larkin was healthy, there's a short list of SS's I'd rather have. 3 are playing today. He's top 10. His durability and the new-age SS may hurt him but he's still one of the best SS's to play the game IMO.
February 9, 200719 yr I think we are sitting here comparing him to HOF's and he's better than some and not as good as some. Now we're comparing him to non-HOFs and he keeps coming out slight above them.......HMMMMMMM I think he's on the fence!!!! A. That would be very "slight above them" in this case. And that guy isn't in any HOF conversations. B. I've said since post #1 that he was on the fence. C. Who in the HOF is he "better than..."? Forget statistical noise, who in the HOF was he better than in comparing their eras? Please say Yount so I can remind you that he had 800 more hits in 1 more season. He also had more 2B, 3B, Hr's, and rbi. Please don't go there.
February 9, 200719 yr Okay, you didn't like the Trammell comparison, and you didn't like the Tony Fernandez comparison, so how about this one: Games: Larkin -- 2,180 "?" -- 2,390 Runs: Larkin -- 1,329 "?" -- 1,386 Hits: Larkin -- 2,340 "?" -- 2,369 2B: Larkin -- 441 "?" -- 420 3B: Larkin -- 76 "?" -- 65 Home Runs: Larkin -- 198 "?" -- 244 RBI: Larkin -- 960 "?" -- 1,084 BB: Larkin -- 939 "?" -- 1,197 SO: Larkin -- 817 "?" -- 1,099 Stolen Base: Larkin -- 379 "?" -- 143 Batting Average: Larkin -- .295 "?" -- .276 On-Base: Larkin -- .371 "?" -- .363 They played in exactly the same amount of seasons. Can we agree that while you can give an edge to Barry, that those are pretty close? Who are you comparing him to here HSSB?
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