I've got to think they'll abandon the Wing-T offense now, something coach Barth had installed for years at Walton. My guess is the Bearcats go multiple on offense under Pence so scheme can better fit player skills. 

On 6/5/2024 at 3:28 PM, Crazy Legs said:

I've got to think they'll abandon the Wing-T offense now, something coach Barth had installed for years at Walton. My guess is the Bearcats go multiple on offense under Pence so scheme can better fit player skills. 

I think going away from the Wing-T will hurt WV.

 

Wing-T kills defenses in high school football, especially in the smaller school divisions.

56 minutes ago, New Colonel said:

I think going away from the Wing-T will hurt WV.

 

Wing-T kills defenses in high school football, especially in the smaller school divisions.

Yes and no. I believe the Wing T is a very good offense to help get some teams some wins and for teams that may not have much overall talent, which can help that team wins some games. However, I think the Wing T also limits teams when they do have more talent and doesn’t allow them to reach their true ceiling. Which is why you may see some wing T teams win a good amount of games against average and below average teams. But then struggle to get those wins when they play more top 10 level type teams. 
 

So I think it depends where you are at as a program. If you are a program that is down and looking to try to find a way to win more games with limited talent. Then it is a good offense to run. If you are a talented team, then I think it limits you some and prevents you from truly taking next step as a program. 

2 hours ago, futurecoach said:

Yes and no. I believe the Wing T is a very good offense to help get some teams some wins and for teams that may not have much overall talent, which can help that team wins some games. However, I think the Wing T also limits teams when they do have more talent and doesn’t allow them to reach their true ceiling. Which is why you may see some wing T teams win a good amount of games against average and below average teams. But then struggle to get those wins when they play more top 10 level type teams. 
 

So I think it depends where you are at as a program. If you are a program that is down and looking to try to find a way to win more games with limited talent. Then it is a good offense to run. If you are a talented team, then I think it limits you some and prevents you from truly taking next step as a program. 

So is it the talent that's the issue or the system? If the wing t helps less talented teams win, it shouldn't be a surprise if they then lose to more talented teams. High School football is so much about the talent that you have....there are dominant teams that run single wing, wing t, and other old school offenses. The top tier teams separate from the lesser talented teams because of their roster, not the offense they run. Not only that, the wing can be pretty versatile and you see elements of it still at all levels. And it's great for small schools who may not have the talent at the QB position all the time to consistently run a more wide open offense. Walton wasn't going to beat Beechwood the last several years regardless of the system they ran.

1 hour ago, rjs4470 said:

So is it the talent that's the issue or the system? If the wing t helps less talented teams win, it shouldn't be a surprise if they then lose to more talented teams. High School football is so much about the talent that you have....there are dominant teams that run single wing, wing t, and other old school offenses. The top tier teams separate from the lesser talented teams because of their roster, not the offense they run. Not only that, the wing can be pretty versatile and you see elements of it still at all levels. And it's great for small schools who may not have the talent at the QB position all the time to consistently run a more wide open offense. Walton wasn't going to beat Beechwood the last several years regardless of the system they ran.

Wasn’t talking about Walton in particular, just the wing t as a whole. You’re right though Walton wasn’t beating Beechwood last year no matter what they ran. I personally love the wing t, and how people have modernized it some now with the gun T.  You make the defense have to be technically sound at all times. Which it does help teams win some games when ran well, but just my personal opinion is I do think it can limit teams some too in reaching their true ceiling. Scott County is probably the best example of that as they run the wing t better than anyone in the state. Which judging by their fans comments lately, they seem to think the wing t has limited them some in regards to how truly successful they can be in the playoffs. 
 

That’s why I said yes and no in regards to if it would be a good thing or not if the new coach does decide to move Walton away form the wing t. I think there is a case to be made for both keeping and moving on from it. 

The Wing-T offense can be good but it’s not a non-stoppable offense and I will agree with @futurecoach that it will limit a teams effectiveness against good teams who have schemes to stop them. Case in point Cooper’s game be Scott Co. The Jags jumped on them early and SC has no answer to get back in the game. 
 

I look for WV to spread their offense out and abandon the Wing-T. 

21 minutes ago, Mr. Sixer said:

The Wing-T offense can be good but it’s not a non-stoppable offense and I will agree with @futurecoach that it will limit a teams effectiveness against good teams who have schemes to stop them. Case in point Cooper’s game be Scott Co. The Jags jumped on them early and SC has no answer to get back in the game. 
 

I look for WV to spread their offense out and abandon the Wing-T. 

I suspect they will, and you'll continue to see less and less of the old school, unique offenses going forward. Bottom line though, no offense is unstoppable. Most high school football games are decided first by talent, then coaching (regardless of what system you run). What you run is far less important than the talent you have and who is running the show.

I disagree with much of the sentiment here regarding the Wing-T.  The Wing-T allows you to punch way above your class so to speak.  It gives you more chances to win.  I also like the evolution into the Gun-T, but that's nothing new (Dale Mueller essentially ran Gun-T for decades at Highlands).

Look, everyone runs the spread now. And honestly, most spread offenses are run quite poorly.  I know I'm going to get heat for this and that's ok....but most high school offensive coordinators running the spread offense don't really have any type of system.  They have a random assembly of plays and formations that they call an offense.  It's all about "getting your athletes in space."  But they don't understand how to set up a defense, and are doing their teams a severe disservice.  The Wing-T is a system, and those Wing-T guys and other old school offensive coaches understand how to get the most out of their talent.  And the Wing-T makes your opponent extremely uncomfortable and spend way more practice time going over how to defend you vs the spread that they see weekly. 

Sure, it's not a popular offense among fans, but it works.  Period. 

And let's be 100% honest here. High school football is a very simple game overall.  The teams that run the ball the best and have the ability to stop the run are the ones that have the most success.   Spread coaches today are too obsessed with passing too much and most have terrible passing concepts.  I have noticed overall that spread coordinators have much more turnover than coordinators who run old school offenses, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

As I said, I think WV will have some growing pains moving the spread offense.  Don't fix what's not broken.

19 hours ago, New Colonel said:

I think going away from the Wing-T will hurt WV.

 

Wing-T kills defenses in high school football, especially in the smaller school divisions.

On the contrary, keeping the Wing-T will hurt WV going forward because it pigeon holes players, creating round holes for square pegs. If they go multiple, which I think they'll do to give players the best chance to excel, they can still have the Wing-T formation in addition to all the sets they implement. In football, options are key and I believe that is the rout WV is going.

4 hours ago, New Colonel said:

I disagree with much of the sentiment here regarding the Wing-T.  The Wing-T allows you to punch way above your class so to speak.  It gives you more chances to win.  I also like the evolution into the Gun-T, but that's nothing new (Dale Mueller essentially ran Gun-T for decades at Highlands).

Look, everyone runs the spread now. And honestly, most spread offenses are run quite poorly.  I know I'm going to get heat for this and that's ok....but most high school offensive coordinators running the spread offense don't really have any type of system.  They have a random assembly of plays and formations that they call an offense.  It's all about "getting your athletes in space."  But they don't understand how to set up a defense, and are doing their teams a severe disservice.  The Wing-T is a system, and those Wing-T guys and other old school offensive coaches understand how to get the most out of their talent.  And the Wing-T makes your opponent extremely uncomfortable and spend way more practice time going over how to defend you vs the spread that they see weekly. 

Sure, it's not a popular offense among fans, but it works.  Period. 

And let's be 100% honest here. High school football is a very simple game overall.  The teams that run the ball the best and have the ability to stop the run are the ones that have the most success.   Spread coaches today are too obsessed with passing too much and most have terrible passing concepts.  I have noticed overall that spread coordinators have much more turnover than coordinators who run old school offenses, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

As I said, I think WV will have some growing pains moving the spread offense.  Don't fix what's not broken.

 

I think the new coach probably has to decide what is best for the program going forward and what will grow it the best. Is sticking with the wing T going to help grow it, or would moving to something different? Walton is coming off a down year going 4 and 6 and missing the playoffs. So it could be the right time to change things, if that is what the new coach wants to do. With any coaching change there could be growing pains no matter if sticking with same system or something new.  It will be interesting to watch to see what direction the new coach goes in. 

3 hours ago, Crazy Legs said:

On the contrary, keeping the Wing-T will hurt WV going forward because it pigeon holes players, creating round holes for square pegs. If they go multiple, which I think they'll do to give players the best chance to excel, they can still have the Wing-T formation in addition to all the sets they implement. In football, options are key and I believe that is the rout WV is going.

Any offense can be guilty of putting round pegs into square holes. Spread type offenses are just as guilty, and require not only good athletes, but also guys who are great decision makers, especially at the QB position….things you don’t always have at smaller schools.

1 hour ago, rjs4470 said:

Any offense can be guilty of putting round pegs into square holes. Spread type offenses are just as guilty, and require not only good athletes, but also guys who are great decision makers, especially at the QB position….things you don’t always have at smaller schools.

Spread also requires really top notch Olinemen to run well.

6 hours ago, futurecoach said:

 

I think the new coach probably has to decide what is best for the program going forward and what will grow it the best. Is sticking with the wing T going to help grow it, or would moving to something different? Walton is coming off a down year going 4 and 6 and missing the playoffs. So it could be the right time to change things, if that is what the new coach wants to do. With any coaching change there could be growing pains no matter if sticking with same system or something new.  It will be interesting to watch to see what direction the new coach goes in. 

Well said.

9 hours ago, Crazy Legs said:

On the contrary, keeping the Wing-T will hurt WV going forward because it pigeon holes players, creating round holes for square pegs. If they go multiple, which I think they'll do to give players the best chance to excel, they can still have the Wing-T formation in addition to all the sets they implement. In football, options are key and I believe that is the rout WV is going.

Can you explain what you mean by it pigeon holes players?

And I think an important question for any program and especially a new head coach is..... how important is winning?   And I don't mean that to be disparaging in any way.  Not everyone is going to be like Beechwood or Trinity.   If winning is your top priority, then you run whatever system gives you the best chances of winning, even if that's an old school system that isn't sexy for most fans.  If you have other priorities, that's fine; just be honest with all stakeholders in your program and the reasons why.  

1 hour ago, New Colonel said:

Can you explain what you mean by it pigeon holes players?

And I think an important question for any program and especially a new head coach is..... how important is winning?   And I don't mean that to be disparaging in any way.  Not everyone is going to be like Beechwood or Trinity.   If winning is your top priority, then you run whatever system gives you the best chances of winning, even if that's an old school system that isn't sexy for most fans.  If you have other priorities, that's fine; just be honest with all stakeholders in your program and the reasons why.  

I'll take a pass. You'll just want the last word anyway. Thanks for asking though. It'll all become a moot point when they change the offense.