For comparison sake can you give me someone that leaked as much and such a broad range of intelligence and what their sentence was. I can't find anyone that has leaked any where near as much as the nearly 500,000 pages that Manning stole.

 

David Hicks

: An Australian national who was captured fighting alongside the Taliban and sent to Guantanamo Bay prison in 2002,

Hicks plead guilty

to material support for terrorism in a Gitmo military commission in 2007 and was sentenced to seven years confinement. That sentence was reduced to nine months given time already served.

John Walker Lindh

: Lindh was convicted of a slew of terrorism and conspiracy charges in 2003 for fighting with the Taliban against the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. He was

sentenced to 20 years in prison

.

Noor Uthman Mohammed

: Mohammed plead guilty to material support for terrorism and conspiracy in a Gitmo military commission in 2011 and

received a 14 year sentence.

Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri

: Al-Marri, a Qatari citizen in the U.S. on a student visa who admitted attending “terrorist training” camps,

was held in military confinement without trial

for more than five years before ultimately pleading guilty in federal court to material support for terrorism. He was sentenced to fifteen years, minus seven for time already served.

Kevin William Harpham

: A white supremacist who attempted to bomb a Martin Luther King day parade in Spokane, Wash., Harpham

plead guilty

in 2011 to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction and “attempt to cause bodily injury with an explosive device because of actual or perceived race, color and national origin” in 2011, and received a 32-year sentence.

 

From MSNBC

David Hicks

: An Australian national who was captured fighting alongside the Taliban and sent to Guantanamo Bay prison in 2002,

Hicks plead guilty

to material support for terrorism in a Gitmo military commission in 2007 and was sentenced to seven years confinement. That sentence was reduced to nine months given time already served.

John Walker Lindh

: Lindh was convicted of a slew of terrorism and conspiracy charges in 2003 for fighting with the Taliban against the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. He was

sentenced to 20 years in prison

.

Noor Uthman Mohammed

: Mohammed plead guilty to material support for terrorism and conspiracy in a Gitmo military commission in 2011 and

received a 14 year sentence.

Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri

: Al-Marri, a Qatari citizen in the U.S. on a student visa who admitted attending “terrorist training” camps,

was held in military confinement without trial

for more than five years before ultimately pleading guilty in federal court to material support for terrorism. He was sentenced to fifteen years, minus seven for time already served.

Kevin William Harpham

: A white supremacist who attempted to bomb a Martin Luther King day parade in Spokane, Wash., Harpham

plead guilty

in 2011 to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction and “attempt to cause bodily injury with an explosive device because of actual or perceived race, color and national origin” in 2011, and received a 32-year sentence.

 

From MSNBC

None of those are for espionage and three aren't US Citizens. None were positions of trust either, none had swore an oath to protect and defend the US.

 

I do think all should have had stronger sentences.

Convicted of Espionage in the last few decades

 

Aldrich Ames...CIA - Life without parole

Robert Hanssen...FBI - 15 consecutive life sentences for 15 counts of espionage

Earl Edwin Pitts...FBI - 27 year sentence

Richard Miller...FBI - 2 Consecutive Life sentences plus 50 years

Clyde Lee Conrad...Us Army - Life in Prison

John Anthony Walker...US Navy - 3 Life sentences

 

Each of these were convicted for similar charges as Manning was, though none had has many charges or were suspected of leaking the volume of information that Manning did. The only difference was that most of them did it directly for another country for monetary gain, while Manning released it seemingly for no personal gain. If some say that makes a big difference I'd ask do you make a distinction between someone that murders a family member because they wanted to or if they were hired to kill them by a third party...either way the murder is committed and the damage is done.

Convicted of Espionage in the last few decades

 

Aldrich Ames...CIA - Life without parole

Robert Hanssen...FBI - 15 consecutive life sentences for 15 counts of espionage

Earl Edwin Pitts...FBI - 27 year sentence

Richard Miller...FBI - 2 Consecutive Life sentences plus 50 years

Clyde Lee Conrad...Us Army - Life in Prison

John Anthony Walker...US Navy - 3 Life sentences

 

Each of these were convicted for similar charges as Manning was, though none had has many charges or were suspected of leaking the volume of information that Manning did. The only difference was that most of them did it directly for another country for monetary gain, while Manning released it seemingly for no personal gain. If some say that makes a big difference I'd ask do you make a distinction between someone that murders a family member because they wanted to or if they were hired to kill them by a third party...either way the murder is committed and the damage is done.

 

You should not bring a gun to a knife fight. Makes you look smart.

Convicted of Espionage in the last few decades

 

Aldrich Ames...CIA - Life without parole

Robert Hanssen...FBI - 15 consecutive life sentences for 15 counts of espionage

Earl Edwin Pitts...FBI - 27 year sentence

Richard Miller...FBI - 2 Consecutive Life sentences plus 50 years

Clyde Lee Conrad...Us Army - Life in Prison

John Anthony Walker...US Navy - 3 Life sentences

 

Each of these were convicted for similar charges as Manning was, though none had has many charges or were suspected of leaking the volume of information that Manning did. The only difference was that most of them did it directly for another country for monetary gain, while Manning released it seemingly for no personal gain. If some say that makes a big difference I'd ask do you make a distinction between someone that murders a family member because they wanted to or if they were hired to kill them by a third party...either way the murder is committed and the damage is done.

 

Whoa whoa whoa. "Similar charges"? There's espionage and then there's espionage.

 

Right out of the gate is Aldrich Ames? That scumbag leaked the names of numerous CIA assets to the KGB, compromising countless operations and leading DIRECTLY to the outing and eventual killing of at least 10 people working with the CIA.

 

Part of the reason the Manning sentence was as small as it was had to do with the inability of the prosecution to show that Manning's leaks actually contributed to the death of any American intelligence operatives or military personnel.

 

Saying that these other people were also convicted under the Espionage Act and so are fundamentally similar cases is like saying that the guy who stole your wallet is the same as the guy who murdered your wife because they were both convicted under the Kentucky Penal Code.

Whoa whoa whoa. "Similar charges"? There's espionage and then there's espionage.

 

Right out of the gate is Aldrich Ames? That scumbag leaked the names of numerous CIA assets to the KGB, compromising countless operations and leading DIRECTLY to the outing and eventual killing of at least 10 people working with the CIA.

 

Part of the reason the Manning sentence was as small as it was had to do with the inability of the prosecution to show that Manning's leaks actually contributed to the death of any American intelligence operatives or military personnel.

 

Saying that these other people were also convicted under the Espionage Act and so are fundamentally similar cases is like saying that the guy who stole your wallet is the same as the guy who murdered your wife because they were both convicted under the Kentucky Penal Code.

 

We don't know the full range of what Manning's leaks led to, as every country in the world got the information. Yes what some of them did is worse hence the stronger sentences for most of them...my point was that his sentence wasn't out of line for the amount that he leaked.

@Getslow are you good with his sentence being reduced so drastically?

For comparison sake can you give me someone that leaked as much and such a broad range of intelligence and what their sentence was. I can't find anyone that has leaked any where near as much as the nearly 500,000 pages that Manning stole.

 

Thats because before Vietnam they just killed you onsite for this kinda stuff.

@Getslow are you good with his sentence being reduced so drastically?

 

It's not easy, and truthfully I've been bouncing from one side to the other all evening.

 

The commutation has the following things going for it:

 

1) This was a long sentence for someone convicted of violating 18 USC 793(e), which is the unauthorized possession and retention of materials related to the national defense. I'm struggling to find one over five years that didn't also carry another violation of the Espionage Act as part of the charges.

 

2) This wasn't traditional espionage as we might think of it, which is defined and criminalized in 18 USC 794: passing information related to national defense to a foreign government. The intent matters in the Espionage Act, despite intent not being specifically listed in the statute. Going all the way back to the earliest cases involving the Espionage Act, the finding of intent is the only way the remarkably broad provisions of the Act have withstood constitutional scrutiny.

 

3) Manning is mentally ill. There's no way around that. I don't know if this particular commutation is the way to go about it, but Manning clearly needs help and almost certainly needed it before the acts in question took place.

 

The commutation has the following things against it:

 

1) This case was adjudicated. Like all commutations, it involves the executive stepping on the toes of everyone involved in this process and telling them they did their jobs wrong. A judge in a perfectly reasonable position placed a 35 year sentence on Manning for this. The law exists and it was essentially followed as written by the court.

 

2) Classified information is not a plaything for internet crusaders. I get that the Espionage Act has its problems, but at its core is the protection of American interests abroad and American military and intelligence personnel the world over. Procuring and releasing information so designated is a serious offense.

 

As of this moment, I think I'm still waffling.

I don't want to get political but it's hard not to. Manning is a hero to some on the left using Wikileaks and this person actually released an unprecedented amount of actual American classified documentation. But the sky was falling last week because a political hack in Podesta was hacked and information released.

Serious question for anyone who wants to answer: do the contents of the leak matter? Does the whistleblower element of this case hold any water at all?

It's not easy, and truthfully I've been bouncing from one side to the other all evening.

 

The commutation has the following things going for it:

 

1) This was a long sentence for someone convicted of violating 18 USC 793(e), which is the unauthorized possession and retention of materials related to the national defense. I'm struggling to find one over five years that didn't also carry another violation of the Espionage Act as part of the charges.

 

2) This wasn't traditional espionage as we might think of it, which is defined and criminalized in 18 USC 794: passing information related to national defense to a foreign government. The intent matters in the Espionage Act, despite intent not being specifically listed in the statute. Going all the way back to the earliest cases involving the Espionage Act, the finding of intent is the only way the remarkably broad provisions of the Act have withstood constitutional scrutiny.

 

3) Manning is mentally ill. There's no way around that. I don't know if this particular commutation is the way to go about it, but Manning clearly needs help and almost certainly needed it before the acts in question took place.

 

The commutation has the following things against it:

 

1) This case was adjudicated. Like all commutations, it involves the executive stepping on the toes of everyone involved in this process and telling them they did their jobs wrong. A judge in a perfectly reasonable position placed a 35 year sentence on Manning for this. The law exists and it was essentially followed as written by the court.

 

2) Classified information is not a plaything for internet crusaders. I get that the Espionage Act has its problems, but at its core is the protection of American interests abroad and American military and intelligence personnel the world over. Procuring and releasing information so designated is a serious offense.

 

As of this moment, I think I'm still waffling.

 

Fair enough, I can appreciate that.

Serious question for anyone who wants to answer: do the contents of the leak matter? Does the whistleblower element of this case hold any water at all?

 

I think a whistleblower if wrong is going on is legit if your heart is in it and think your right. But you still should be punished for breaking rules , not following orders and breaking oath.

 

My main concern is the precedent it sets when the commander and cheif forgives this behavior.

 

Forgiving someone for a drug bust doesn't bug me in the slightest , this is different. It does not make me feel comfortable.

Serious question for anyone who wants to answer: do the contents of the leak matter? Does the whistleblower element of this case hold any water at all?

 

And for the record I respect your long post. This isn't cut and dry because I want people doing wrong held accountable. I just believe going to the IG or some other agency if real laws were being broken is the way this system should work.

 

I just don't feel comfortable rewarding this behavior. If Manning is truly mentally ill then move this person to a secure mental facility, but they should not be out walking.

Serious question for anyone who wants to answer: do the contents of the leak matter? Does the whistleblower element of this case hold any water at all?

 

Some what, but not entirely for me. Especially since I don't know everything leaked in this case.

 

I can't rob a bank just because I'm broke and expect a lesser sentence than anyone else gets...a crime was committed and he should face the music, so to speak.

It may as simple as , "What is wrong, is wrong."