No I do not think it is right

 

Then not sure how you can think it's okay for people to refuse to provide services to someone who is gay??

Then not sure how you can think it's okay for people to refuse to provide services to someone who is gay??

 

Are we now trying to say that homosexuality is a race? A race that is protected by the civil rights amendments in the Constitution?

Are we now trying to say that homosexuality is a race? A race that is protected by the civil rights amendments in the Constitution?

 

Nope, but it is a protected class.

 

I guess what I'm really trying to understand is this...Why do you believe that it's okay to discriminate against someone based on sexual orientation, but it's not okay to discriminate because of race, or gender?

Very difficult balancing act for the very reason Bugatti pointed out, people will use the religious objection excuse simply to discriminate against a group. On the other hand, PP1 has asked some very hard questions that no one has answered, what about the truly religious being forced to perform sometimes very personal services in the face of something they truly believe to be a sin? How do we balance their rights to observe their religious beliefs?

Nope, but it is a protected class.

 

I guess what I'm really trying to understand is this...Why do you believe that it's okay to discriminate against someone based on sexual orientation, but it's not okay to discriminate because of race, or gender?

 

I do not think it is okay to discriminate at all. I do not think that me not wanting to be the presiding minister over a same sex wedding is discrimination. I have refused to do weddings for various reasons before.

 

I do not think it is discrimination for my mom to refuse to make a wedding dress for a lesbian wedding. She has refused to make dresses before.

 

It would indeed be discrimination to say "you people can't come in my church. Get out!"

 

In this country people have the right to do what they want to do and go where they want to go. They also have the right to not do what they do not want to do and not go to places that they do not want to go.

I do not think it is okay to discriminate at all. I do not think that me not wanting to be the presiding minister over a same sex wedding is discrimination. I have refused to do weddings for various reasons before.

 

I do not think it is discrimination for my mom to refuse to make a wedding dress for a lesbian wedding. She has refused to make dresses before.

 

It would indeed be discrimination to say "you people can't come in my church. Get out!"

 

In this country people have the right to do what they want to do and go where they want to go. They also have the right to not do what they do not want to do and not go to places that they do not want to go.

 

Seems hypocritical to me, but to each their own I guess.

If I refuse to do something for someone because they're black, I'm discriminating against them.

 

If I refuse to do something for someone because they're gay, I'm not discriminating against them?

 

I'm sorry, I fail to see how that passes the logic test.

The key word in the quote from the first post is "individual." Do you think that me as a preacher should have the right to refuse to perform a same sex wedding because I disagree with it?

 

My father-in-law is a DJ. Should he have the right to refuse to take a wedding reception for a same sex couple? Right now he can refuse a gig because he is over-booked, on vacation, has reds tickets, or just doesn't want to.

 

My mom makes wedding dresses. Should she have the right to refuse to make a dress for a same sex wedding? In the past she has turned down jobs because she had a hand injury, was planning a mission trip, or simply didn't want to.

 

Should the government start telling people what they can or cannot do with their own business or trade?

 

I was a waiter for ten years when I was younger. Don Pablos, Brio, and Claddaugh's Irish Pub. I guarantee that I had more experience and skill then some of the girls waiting tables at Hooters. Does Hooter's have the right to say that they want women only as servers? I say they do. It is their business.

 

Churches are not businesses under law, so that isn't the issue here, but to answer your question, I would never support a law that forces clergy to perform a marriage that they are opposed to. If that were to ever happen, we'd be having a different conversation.

 

I just suppose that I look at Christianity differently. I feel that you interact with every individual out of love and compassion. If I were in the business of making wedding dresses, I wouldn't discriminate against a lesbian and not make her a wedding dress, any more than I would discriminate against a woman who is already living with her soon-to-be husband. My religious upbringing holds that both of those things are sins. Instead, I'd make the dress for the individual and interact with them in a loving, Christian way. That doesn't mean that I support their actions.

 

Obviously, you feel differently and that is okay. I do have a question. Should nurses and doctors be able to refuse to treat homosexuals? Even though it is a service industry, doctors offices and hospitals are still businesses.

Nope, but it is a protected class.

 

I guess what I'm really trying to understand is this...Why do you believe that it's okay to discriminate against someone based on sexual orientation, but it's not okay to discriminate because of race, or gender?

 

Sexual orientation is not a protected class. That's a big reason why these issues come up.

Sexual orientation is not a protected class. That's a big reason why these issues come up.

 

This is what I got when looking it up earlier...

 

The federal government does prohibit sexual orientation discrimination and gender identity discrimination in the federal workplace. In 1998, President Clinton amended an executive order that includes "sexual orientation" as a protected class in the federal government's equal opportunity employment policy.

It's funny that I look at my position and PP1's and they are completely different. Both of us are seemingly rational people, probably good dudes, but both of us look at this situation as something that is pretty simple yet come to different conclusions. I'd just like to take a moment to recognize how this thread is completely opposite of take your pick from the politics forum in that it is possible to disagree and be civil.

 

To the heart of the issue, I'd have to say PP1 marrying anyone isn't even in play since it is a religious ceremony by nature. I can maybe buy the argument that we're leading to a point where that could be an issue, but I just don't see it.

 

As far as businesses go, I look at this as similar to the voir dire process of jury selection. Each side gets too look at the pool of potential jurors then strike a certain number for literally any reason they wish. The only exceptions come from the Supreme Court in that the reason can't be because of gender or race. If a business owner is deadset against serving homosexuals and can't come up with literally any rationale aside from the fact that they're gay, well I question whether they have all their marbles.

 

Frankly, I've never been refused service for anything without a rational reason. Maybe I've been told they were out of something, or too backed up, or something else, but I have no clue whether this was true or not. If this happens in the future I would just go about my day. If somebody told me they were refusing service and their reason was based solely on something they deduced about me from my appearance or even worse, asked me a personal question to decide whether I was worth waiting on, sure I would be glad they didn't get my money, but I would also be irate and potentially humiliated. To me at least, this issue really just comes down to decency.

This is what I got when looking it up earlier...

 

The federal government does prohibit sexual orientation discrimination and gender identity discrimination in the federal workplace. In 1998, President Clinton amended an executive order that includes "sexual orientation" as a protected class in the federal government's equal opportunity employment policy.

 

I'm pretty sure that just applies to federal employment. Protected Classes protect against discrimination is a variety of additional arenas. A list of what is included is in that link.

Obviously, you feel differently and that is okay. I do have a question. Should nurses and doctors be able to refuse to treat homosexuals? Even though it is a service industry, doctors offices and hospitals are still businesses.

 

I don't know. Doctors and nurses sometimes refuse to treat people for variety of reasons, why should sexual orientation be any different? St Elizabeth refuse to treat me when I had a vasectomy. An Eye doctor in Mason Ohio refuse to treat me because of the type of insurance I had. NKU refuse to let me take a particular class because I was a mail.

 

We can come up with a plethora of different scenarios in order to approach this topic differently. I don't see how the doctors and nurses question applies to discussing thus far

 

On a funny note, the 15 years ago I walked into a barbershop and Latonia right after I moved there. I realized in a very short amount time that this particular barbershop caters to a particular race of people. I wasn't quite sure what to do. So I simply asked "do you cut white people's hair too?" The barber laughed and said "yes but not very well"

I do not think it is okay to discriminate at all. I do not think that me not wanting to be the presiding minister over a same sex wedding is discrimination. I have refused to do weddings for various reasons before.

 

I do not think it is discrimination for my mom to refuse to make a wedding dress for a lesbian wedding. She has refused to make dresses before.

 

It would indeed be discrimination to say "you people can't come in my church. Get out!"

 

In this country people have the right to do what they want to do and go where they want to go. They also have the right to not do what they do not want to do and not go to places that they do not want to go.

 

Do you get the feeling you are in the minority? Even among other Christians?

@Bipsic I agree with it being refreshing to have rational discussion, even when we disagree. @PP1 has always been a very decent individual, who seems to care about everyone. I very much appreciate that.