I'm sure if you asked PSU's RR, he'd say he's made a lot of coaching mistakes in his time - and this line-up change may be one of them. PSU's new line-up lost to Nebraska 3-2 at home (after being up 2-0 - when has that ever happened?) and struggled BIG TIME against an Iowa team that's winless in the B1G. No one is 100% right all the time, and only time will tell if this move will pay off, but they were doing pretty well (understatement) before the moves.

 

After going with a line-up that defeated national power McAuley in their own gym, and then Assumption for the first time in 2 years, who would even think "you know this line-up isn't working..." and change it for the Championship. No one. Real easy to over-analyze it now.

 

Use the stats and outcome to illustrate a bigger picture problem moving forward - yes. But hard to say they shouldn't have gone with the same line-up that got them there - especially in that moment.

Who are some of the players that could play OH/opposite?

I[quote=dallaslaredo;5670352

After going with a line-up that defeated national power McAuley in their own gym, and then Assumption for the first time in 2 years, who would even think "you know this line-up isn't working..." and change it for the Championship. No one. Real easy to over-analyze it now.

 

Use the stats and outcome to illustrate a bigger picture problem moving forward - yes. But hard to say they shouldn't have gone with the same line-up that got them there - especially in that moment.

 

I don't think l ever said a different lineup should have been started vs SHA. I think I said other players should have been given a chance earlier in the season and earlier in the Chicago trip. Rereading what I wrote and I can see where that may have been interpreted but not what I meant. Of course you go with the group that got you there, in the final, I would have liked to have seen a performance based sub come in as Draud hit negative. The disadvantage is that all I can see are match stats so maybe the negative didn't come until

Late in set 2? I don't know. But only one kill for the match tells me she didn't have a lot going during the entire match. And Knaley's stats proved a sub was merited earlier in the weekend

 

With regard to your last statement about how to use stats to illustrate a bigger

Problem- I think I have more than adequately done that.

Who are some of the players that could play OH/opposite?

 

 

Welcome to BGP! When posing a question like this on the forum, it is customary for you to go first with your picks. So instead of "who do you think..." You would say "I think so and so should be given a chance and here's why..." That will get you more replies.

 

So, since you posed be question you must have some ideas on things?

I'm sure if you asked PSU's RR, he'd say he's made a lot of coaching mistakes in his time - and this line-up change may be one of them. PSU's new line-up lost to Nebraska 3-2 at home (after being up 2-0 - when has that ever happened?) and struggled BIG TIME against an Iowa team that's winless in the B1G. No one is 100% right all the time, and only time will tell if this move will pay off, but they were doing pretty well (understatement) before the moves.

 

After going with a line-up that defeated national power McAuley in their own gym, and then Assumption for the first time in 2 years, who would even think "you know this line-up isn't working..." and change it for the Championship. No one. Real easy to over-analyze it now.

 

Use the stats and outcome to illustrate a bigger picture problem moving forward - yes. But hard to say they shouldn't have gone with the same line-up that got them there - especially in that moment.

 

I'm withdrawing my comment....

Edited October 6, 201511 yr by Sandman32

Very good points, vblover and I love a good debate.

 

I think it is silly to use a match that involved two top 5 college teams in the country to compare to ANY high school team. But someone did it on a thread earlier when they compared Micha Hancock to NKY high school setters so maybe it is becoming a trend. A better argument, in this case, would be to compare the players in the same positions on NDA's opponents and see, statistically, where they match up. The difficulty for me in this is that I was not at these matches so I am making a researched and educated guess on which players were the OH/Opp for the teams NDA competed against. (I think I have listed them accurately but I am not 100% so just want that out there before someone jumps down my throat...this is BGP after all.)

 

Before I move forward with my stat comparison, I did want to note that, while my knowledge of Nebraska volleyball consists of the fact that John Cook's daughter played for for him and got a DUI (thank you TMZ), that is all I know about them. I am however a B1G fan of Penn State. Your comment above about Russ Rose having depth in the OH position is misleading once you look into the matter more deeply. And, after giving more thought on the PSU vs NE match, I can make an argument that your bringing attention to that match actually supports my call for an NDA change in the front row, but more on that later.

 

PSU's current roster breakdown is the following: Setter (2), OH (5*), MH (3**), Opp (1), L/DS (7***)

 

*OH hitter count includes Whitney who actually played MH vs Nebraska so for Nebraska match PSU actually had only 4 OH (Frantti, Courtney, Reed, Lee)

 

**MH count does not include Whitney. She played MH so this count vs Nebraska, should be 4 (Washington, Thelen, Gorrell, Whitney)

 

***At most high level D1 schools, a Libero may get money. I would assume at PSU the libero is on scholarship but maybe not since the player who is now playing the position was not at the start of the season (line up change by Russ Rose when the current player wasn't performing) Most of these DS would be walk ons.

So 11 scholarships spread over the hitting/setting corp and 1 for the L/DS.

 

In the Nebraska match, PSU made a pretty major line up change from what they had been playing the entire UNDEFEATED season. Thelen (MH), who had been starting, got benched and Whitney who had been playing opposite, played Middle. Note the bolded, PSU had been undefeated up to the Nebraska match. The wins include:

 

Stanford (ranked 2) 3-0 win

Colorado (ranked 21) 3-0 win

Wisconsin (ranked 16) 3-0 win

Minnesota (ranked 21)3-2 win (these two sets were the first sets PSU had lost all season).

 

So an undefeated team, ranked first in the country, who had lost ONLY 2 SETS the entire season made a significant lineup change to see if they could be even better. Thelen is not injured (by all accounts) but anyone can look at her stats and see why she is not in the lineup anymore. Will Rose change it back since they lost is anyone's guess. He didn't the next night against Iowa and they won. It will be an interesting season but one reason I love Penn State is that he rewards hard work and holds players accountable for underperformance and he makes changes when necessary.

 

So...with the Whitney switch to MH, that brought in Lee who got some time at Opposite. So for this match, Rose didn't have 'depth'....Lee is his first sub as she is the only OH on the bench that has any experience. Reed (Soph OH) has played very little in the two years she has been there and all the word on Novakovic (Frosh Opp) is that she is nowhere near ready. I would assume the same is true for Gorrell (Frosh MH) since, instead of using her, a trained MH, Rose took a major point scorer (Whitney) and moved her to Middle for Thelen. In reality for the Nebraska match Rose had one OH at his disposal (Reed), not the plethora that your post implies when you say "....and they have much more talented depth."

 

I would argue with regard to Courtney's stats the same way I would argue for Hentz. She is the best ball control, defender, blocker on the roster. She is also a senior and a leader. I am sure Courtney was not happy with her hitting percentage (especially in a loss) but she is given a lot of leeway on the offensive end, just like Hentz, because of everything else they do to help the team. Frantti is not the stud that Courtney is but, I think, is probably entitled to a bad night...she did not play her best. However, even in this scenario, Rose had one sub (Reed) to put in for either of them.

 

To reiterate, vblover, your post about PSU supports my decision that when things are not working or players are underperforming, coaches make changes. Russ Rose, arguably the best volleyball coach in the nation, did just that. MH2 (Thelen) gets benched and a whole lineup shift had to happen that includes one player 'out of position' (Whitney) and a bench player (Lee) getting some time that one can only assume she has earned. Russ Rose wants to win a NC and NDA wants to win state. The difference is that Russ Rose will do what he has to and give players a chance in order to reach the ultimate goal. Take a loss early in order to see what those players can do in those types of matches and prepare them for an end of season run. I just don't think that is going on at NDA.

 

Now on to the stat comparison that I spoke of in the opening...Unfortunately, a lot of the teams NDA plays don't enter stats into MaxPreps so I am only comparing those teams that do.

 

vs. McAuley (Chicago) NDA WIN 2-1

McAuley O'Brien (.250), O'Connell (.278) Niego (.083)

NDA Knaley (.294), Draud (.368), Hentz (.357)

RESULT: Knaley and Draud win

 

vs Sacred Heart (played in Louisville) NDA WIN 3-2

Hammons (.242), Westenhoffer (.114), Bennett (.310), Gentile (.250) *not sure who the OH is between Bennett and Gentile

NDA Knaley (.121), Draud (.214), Hentz (.333)

RESULT: SHA OH's win

 

vs Assumption (LIVT) NDA LOSS 1-2

Palmer (.250), Askin (.150), Moore (.250)

NDA Knaley (.071), Draud (.312), Hentz (.517)

RESULT: Draud wins, Knaley loses

 

Those are all the stats that the opponents have entered in the 'important' head to head matches. If you look just at these, two things stand out for me...

 

First, Draud did well statistically in these matches. Her average in these three matches was a very respectable .290. That tells me that for her average (that includes all of Chicago tourney and all 6 matches agains the Louisville teams) to be .158 and .131 (respectively) she must have really struggled in some of the other matches.

 

Second, Knaley stats speak for themselves...she is not getting it done. In these three matches her average was .160. Her average in Chicago Tourney was .190 and vs 6 Louisville matches .134. Based on averages, she is consistently not getting it done.

 

These two NDA players, as I stated above, do nothing for the team but hit, I am only speaking in terms of stats. They don't block (minimal), dig, pass or serve. Their only responsibility is to hit...unlike Frantti and Courtney in the PSU example used above, who do all of that (except Frantti usually doesn't serve but is a primary passer in every serve receive). Again, using your example, vblover as to why Rose maybe didn't make a change in the NE match for Courtney or Frantti...

1. he had only Reed on the bench and

2. both Courtney and Frantti do a heck of a lot more than hit. Subs for them would involve different serve receive patterns, another DS coming in back row. It is much more complicated than what is going on with two players at NDA whose sole responsibility is to hit. It is an easy sub to bring in another player to solely have to hit and nothing else changes.

 

Look, I don't have a dog in this fight. I am an avid, lifelong fan of NDA volleyball and simply want them to win a State Championship. I assume most people on this board are parents of current players and I don't mean to step on any toes, it is why I am trying to take a black and white look and not just my subjective opinion, especially when I don't go to every match.

 

My points are simple...NDA has run the same lineup for the past two seasons. The only change this year is reloading the two spots Thelen and VonHandorf left open from graduation (neither of which are involved in this particular discussion). The only competition I have seen is for the Libero spot. The outside hitters seem to be given a pass and I think (and many agree) there are players on the bench who can help. If nothing else, put a fire under the butt of the player they replace if only temporarily.

 

I was disappointed when I saw the stats and didn't see any other players get any playing time in Chicago. NDA has two matches left that will challenge them (Ursaline and Assumption) and it is almost too late to get any players experience and time to build confidence. I think for PandaNation it is clear that the coach has made his decision, regardless of stats and wkrp calling him out of BGP (that was funny, by the way!).

 

Again, my tone should be one of fact, I am not angry or defensive. One bad thing about these boards is that you can't hear tone. If we were discussing over coffee, that is what this would sound like on my end, a discussion over a cup of joe.

 

As always, good luck to the Pandas tonight vs Conner.

 

vblover, you are going to get me fired....

 

Re JV...I have no idea if they keep stats. I have seen them play in the bigger matches and they have a player or two that shine on a consistent basis, but since there are a lot of Freshman on the roster, I am not as familiar...yet. In the 4 big matches I saw (MND, Mercy, Ursula, Lak East) they were very, very good. But don't know stats. Stephenson definitely stands out as a leader, both emotionally and physically. I would give her the same leeway on the JV team that Hentz/Courtney get in my argument above. She truly does it all. I am impressed with B. Morgan, I would think her and Stephenson will run a 6/2 next year on Varsity since both set and hit. Morgan is a better hitter than setter right now. Gormally is undersized middle but really athletic and fun to watch, haven't seen her hops in the middle since Wulfeck graduated (who I see on the JV bench helping coach by the way), Sears is the other JV hitter who sometimes gets varsity time...nice player as well.

 

(Side note, I so look forward to the intense debate that is bound to rage on BGP when NDA graduates this senior class and has only 3 starters returning. Who will win the 9th, etc. For those who haven't seen them, I think many would be shocked at how good the JV team is. They would beat many local varsity teams. And add in Hardig who is a sophomore playing only varsity and, I would argue NDA JV would beat MOST varsity teams in the area. I heard Kordes say one time that the great players at Assumption 'sometimes have to wait their turns' and the same is true at NDA. They will be ready next season to carry on the tradition, just as this crop of seniors had to wait their turn (besides Hentz) there is a whole JV team waiting in the wings.)

 

As for taking the JV stats and reducing the percentages by .100 I think that is a bad way to win that argument. A varsity team for an OH is going to have a better middle game (to create seams in the block), better passing, better setting and better communication (to call shots). It is hard to compare all of these things by simply reducing the hitting percentage...you are taking into account the better team on the other side but not giving credit for the benefits of playing with varsity players on your own side. Besides playing the matches, I am not sure how you statistically compare two players.

 

With regard to L2 getting junk balls, yes this may be true to an extent but I think that is just an excuse. A trained L2 should be able to get kills off of out of system balls. Again, if they are not, just TRY someone else....maybe that person can??

 

Competitive practice environment...I have no clue...none. I generally lean towards the benefit of the doubt and support of the coaches (I am generally anti parent... sorry BGPer's) but this to me seems so obvious and with the record against Louisville being 2-4 along with statistical evidence, to me a change is necessary.

 

As for the coach's decision on Saturday, I know they are not black and white and with Buck not being there on the weekend, maybe the asst was afraid to make any changes or lacked the experience, I have no idea. I also know chemistry plays a role in these decisions so maybe that is it. My posts are statistically driven because I believe above all else, if you are truly trying to win, you put the girls out there who are going to score. Statistically speaking that is not happening.

 

Fun debate, got my juices flowing, I may need to head out to Conner tonight to see the Pandas play!

 

GOOD LORD!!!! you are putting up a good challenge to @B-Ball-fan, for longest posts.

Thanks for helping me out! Obviously I'm new to this.. Actually I don't have any ideas. I have only seen them play a few times.

I thought Stephenson and Sears both played some while Hentz and Knaley missed time or were rested. How did they do?

If ND wins vs SHA is anyone even talking about this?

I thought Stephenson and Sears both played some while Hentz and Knaley missed time or were rested. How did they do?

 

Sears plays simply because of size. I think Stephenson is the better option. She is highly competitive and has more skills than just being tall. Great hitter, setter, small but good blocker. I think Stephenson would probably be starting over Knaley if Knaley wasn't a senior.

GOOD LORD!!!! you are putting up a good challenge to @B-Ball-fan, for longest posts.

 

 

Bet you wish I knew something about softball.

I thought Stephenson and Sears both played some while Hentz and Knaley missed time or were rested. How did they do?

 

I have only attended the bigger games. When Knaley got hurt vs Lakota, Sears went in. I don't think I have ever seen Stephenson play varsity. Her stats show a good hitting percentage but she probably just does "clean up" work once the game is in hand against lesser opponents so not a fair comparison.

 

Like I said earlier, barring a revelation, no changes will be made. I don't think I have ever seen Buck sub during a Match because a player is doing poorly - front row anyway. (He gave Colvin back the libero jersey in set 5 vs Lakota. Pictures from Chicago show she still has it.) Other than that...no subs...

 

I would be shocked if that suddenly changed.

Sears plays simply because of size. I think Stephenson is the better option. She is highly competitive and has more skills than just being tall. Great hitter, setter, small but good blocker. I think Stephenson would probably be starting over Knaley if Knaley wasn't a senior.

 

I was at the Ryle match and Stephenson started in the front row. I heard later that one of the other girls was hurt. I thought she did great.

 

She's not "small" she looked just as tall as the other girls out there except maybe the middle hitters. I just wanted to say that because one of the other comments made it sound like she was 5' tall or something and I think she is normal sized based on seeing her on the court against Ryle.

Bet you wish I knew something about softball.

 

I know you know a little something about softball......