Talk about a slanted article. This could easily be made into a "what came first, the chicken or the egg " case. Are blacks, in fact, more likely to commit traffic violations or does it appear that way because they are pulled over for them more often than white drivers? For example, I do a rolling stop at a 4 way stop when I can see nothing coming. A couple of minutes later a car with 4 young black males does the same thing. Who do you think is more likely to get pulled over?

 

From the article:

 

"The institute cites two major studies on police profiling, one conducted in Savannah, Ga., and another in Cincinnati. Neither "support the perception that a high level of discrimination occurs prior to a traffic stop."

Talk about a slanted article. This could easily be made into a "what came first, the chicken or the egg " case. Are blacks, in fact, more likely to commit traffic violations or does it appear that way because they are pulled over for them more often than white drivers? For example, I do a rolling stop at a 4 way stop when I can see nothing coming. A couple of minutes later a car with 4 young black males does the same thing. Who do you think is more likely to get pulled over?

 

If you do it right in front of a police officer, I'd expect both cars get stopped.

 

It's clear you think the car with 4 young black males would be more likely to get stopped, unless I'm reading your post wrong. So are you saying all police racially profile?

From the article:

 

"The institute cites two major studies on police profiling, one conducted in Savannah, Ga., and another in Cincinnati. Neither "support the perception that a high level of discrimination occurs prior to a traffic stop."

 

And I'm not buying that, based on personal experience.

 

Back in my 20s, I could fairly have been called an alcoholic. I had a problem.

 

I got pulled over a good dozen times for my acts. I got a DUI when I was 21 (I'm 44 now), a few months after I turned legal, in Bowling Green. The other times I was let off with a "don't do this again" warning. If I'd been born black, I'd still be in prison. That's the reality. The color of my skin helped me avoid ruining my life. If it was my best friend — a black guy who is now in a very prominent position — he never gets a chance at a real life, let alone ascending to the position he's in now.

 

I often ask myself how often in many other times, separate from the above dozen, that I didn't get a second glance from police because of the color of my skin, and how things would be different if I were my friend. Little things like talking my way out of speeding tickets, etc., or not even being pulled over to begin with.

 

There's some white guilt for you.

If you do it right in front of a police officer, I'd expect both cars get stopped.

 

It's clear you think the car with 4 young black males would be more likely to get stopped, unless I'm reading your post wrong. So are you saying all police racially profile?

 

You'd expect both cars to be stopped but we all know that isn't always the case. If you're speeding 15 or so miles over the limit, then sure I'd think both cars would get stopped. But something like not coming to a full stop when there aren't any other cars around? I'd bet that I'd be a lot less likely to be pulled over.

 

My point was how do we know if blacks truly do commit more traffic offenses than whites? Couldn't it also be a case of the police using minor offenses as an excuse to pull them over to check for more major crimes? Like I said chicken or the egg. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't. There are a lot of statistics that show that blacks are more likely to receive jail time or longer sentences than whites for the same crimes. How do we know that isn't the case with the traffic offenses? And I didn't say all police. It doesn't take all police officers to skew the numbers, just some of them.

From the article:

 

"The institute cites two major studies on police profiling, one conducted in Savannah, Ga., and another in Cincinnati. Neither "support the perception that a high level of discrimination occurs prior to a traffic stop."

 

I'm going to take it that you said this because Savannah, Georgia and Cincinnati, Ohio aren't really cities that aren't really known for awesome race relations.

 

One is a former plantation town that had a Paula Dean restaurant, the other is Cincinnati.

I'm going to take it that you said this because Savannah, Georgia and Cincinnati, Ohio aren't really cities that aren't really known for awesome race relations.

 

One is a former plantation town that had a Paula Dean restaurant, the other is Cincinnati.

 

Nope, just pointing them out in response to Average Joes rhetorical question.

Nope, just pointing them out in response to Average Joes rhetorical question.

 

Well, in that case, I'll say that two police studies against the mountains of ones which say the exact opposite are not the most convincing evidence.

Well, in that case, I'll say that two police studies against the mountains of ones which say the exact opposite are not the most convincing evidence.

 

I am not surprised but would be interested in those mountain of studies. Links?

I am not surprised but would be interested in those mountain of studies. Links?

 

http://www.nij.gov/topics/law-enforcement/legitimacy/Pages/traffic-stops.aspx

 

Quite a few linked here if you want to look at the citations.

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9125.2012.00285.x/abstract;jsessionid=2090DCD6730536DA790D83BA004E5B45.f02t01?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

 

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/nylr87&div=28&id=&page=

 

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/racial-gap-found-in-traffic-stops-in-milwaukee-ke1hsip-134977408.html

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/07/aclu-illinois-state-polic_n_872586.html

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/12/04/the-long-halting-unfinished-fight-to-end-racial-profiling-in-america/

 

 

Can link more once I get home from work today if you'd like.

 

Some are articles that cite the studies, but given, I think it's a pretty fair portrait and that the articles in question are accessible.

Racial Profiling and Traffic Stops | National Institute of Justice

 

Quite a few linked here if you want to look at the citations.

 

POLICING RACE: THE RACIAL STRATIFICATION OF SEARCHES IN POLICE TRAFFIC STOPS - ROJEK - 2012 - Criminology - Wiley Online Library

 

87 New York University Law Review 2012 Discrimination during Traffic Stops: How an Economic Account Justifying Racial Profiling Falls Short Note

 

A Journal Sentinel Watchdog Report - Racial gap found in traffic stops in Milwaukee

 

ACLU: Illinois State Police Show Racial Bias In Traffic Stops

 

The long, halting, unfinished fight to end racial profiling in America - The Washington Post

 

 

Can link more once I get home from work today if you'd like.

 

Some are articles that cite the studies, but given, I think it's a pretty fair portrait and that the articles in question are accessible.

 

Thanks, so far the ones I've looked at do not say the exact opposite of those studies. I'll keep reading though.

Thanks, so far the ones I've looked at do not say the exact opposite of those studies. I'll keep reading though.

 

So what are you saying? I only ask to make sure that I've not misinterpreted what you're going for here.

 

I took it to mean that you were saying that those two studies show that it didn't happen. My apologies if that was off base.

 

To me, if profiling weren't such a thing, there'd be no reason that a number of Departments have been in hot water over it throughout the past decade, there'd be no reason for them to be keeping reports and showing compliance, etc.

So what are you saying? I only ask to make sure that I've not misinterpreted what you're going for here.

 

I took it to mean that you were saying that those two studies show that it didn't happen. My apologies if that was off base.

 

To me, if profiling weren't such a thing, there'd be no reason that a number of Departments have been in hot water over it throughout the past decade, there'd be no reason for them to be keeping reports and showing compliance, etc.

 

I don't think the studies show that discrimination doesn't happen, just that they did not find it in their studies.

 

I think there is confusion between profiling and discrimination. I have no doubt that profiling goes on and I happen to have zero problem with it. In fact I believe it to often be good police work. I consider it different than discrimination. However, I do recognize that discrimination does play into it sometimes and it is used inappropriately. I also understand that many people consider discrimination and profiling to be the same. I'm just not one of them.

I don't think the studies show that discrimination doesn't happen, just that they did not find it in their studies.

 

I think there is confusion between profiling and discrimination. I have no doubt that profiling goes on and I happen to have zero problem with it. In fact I believe it to often be good police work. I consider it different than discrimination. However, I do recognize that discrimination does play into it sometimes and it is used inappropriately. I also understand that many people consider discrimination and profiling to be the same. I'm just not one of them.

 

 

Gotcha. I understand what you are saying on plenty of levels and that makes sense.

 

I'll disagree with some of your thoughts though, especially that profiling is a good thing in all instances (which you didn't really say 'all' unequivocally or anything, just using it to make my point). I think there are times when it leads to a situations where relations are just set back, hard feelings are harbored, resentment builds, etc. That's not just racial profiling, that's economic, gender, what have you.

 

I will say that I do think there are situations where profiling is definitely a good thing, but would say that I probably see less justification for it than others may. Doesn't mean I'm right and they're wrong, and we might not even be having the same thoughts about a lot of it, but I think 'profiling' and 'discrimination' are pretty broad terms as well.

:thumb: No argument here. It's one of those difficult topics with a lot of grey area. I agree that profiling can be very problematic. Just another reason I'm glad I'm not in law enforcement. I would be in trouble all the time.

:thumb: No argument here. It's one of those difficult topics with a lot of grey area. I agree that profiling can be very problematic. Just another reason I'm glad I'm not in law enforcement. I would be in trouble all the time.

 

Yea... my views on it change all the time. I really felt a lot differently living in Kentucky and then when I moved to Texas. Just a different world in lots of ways. Both have their problems and things like that, but going from a small place to a fairly large city (SA is 7th most populous in the US and growing) and all the Hispanic culture that's here and stuff, especially some of the people I've worked with, I see things way differently than before.

 

I'm with a friend in law school who is driving a new BMW. His parents work for NASA. We were going to Wendy's. Top 10% of his class in law school. Very clean cut guy, even keeled. Also happens to be black.

 

I saw what DWB was when a cop looks at us roll by, pulls a U-turn and follows us for a fair bit, basically all the way in.

 

When it happened, I was kinda like, "really". And he's just chill about it and like, "eh, kinda happens a lot".

 

Too bad we weren't more exciting for him. I look over at my buddy and go, "man, if someone in this car actually should be in jail if you really get down to it, then it's definitely me", so I really dunno what to say.

 

Funny part is, if the dude was actually profiling and had actually run his tags and got his address, he'd have probably been like, "spoiled rich kid" if you took any racially identifying info out of the equation.

 

I know that it was whatever enough that I was just kind of like, "really?" and he's just kinda used to it happening in a way and doesn't really say much other than an "eh, I guess I'm used to it".

 

I really wish how clean cut this dude is could come through in my story. He's kind of like a Ned Flanders without the religion and annoyance.