Bishops say gays have gifts to offer church

 

This is really interesting. Bishops had a meeting, and came out of the meeting sharing the same beliefs and stance that the Church has stood by for over 2000 years... and for some reason its taken as a "shift in stance(?)"

:ohbrother:

Bishops say gays have gifts to offer church

 

This is really interesting. Bishops had a meeting, and came out of the meeting sharing the same beliefs and stance that the Church has stood by for over 2000 years... and for some reason its taken as a "shift in stance(?)"

:ohbrother:

 

The news media likes grasping at straws to make a big story line when it comes to the topics coming out of the Vatican these days.

Wasn't the biggest issue addressed whether the those remarried can take communion, not gays in the church?

 

Communion allowed to those remarried has to very different perspectives. The old school view is that if you leave your lawfully wedded spouse and remarry, you have separated yourself form the communion of the church (and to some degree from God by breaking marriage laws) and therefore, should not participate in communion. The other sides says those who have broken away needing the healing of communion more than anyone else and should be encourage to accept communion. Not a theologian so I cannot answer this question.

Wasn't the biggest issue addressed whether the those remarried can take communion, not gays in the church?

 

Communion allowed to those remarried has to very different perspectives. The old school view is that if you leave your lawfully wedded spouse and remarry, you have separated yourself form the communion of the church (and to some degree from God by breaking marriage laws) and therefore, should not participate in communion. The other sides says those who have broken away needing the healing of communion more than anyone else and should be encourage to accept communion. Not a theologian so I cannot answer this question.

 

The communion aspect was definitely the bigger deal of the two...but communion doesn't make the great headline that "the Catholic stance on homosexuality" does.

Wasn't the biggest issue addressed whether the those remarried can take communion, not gays in the church?

 

Communion allowed to those remarried has to very different perspectives. The old school view is that if you leave your lawfully wedded spouse and remarry, you have separated yourself form the communion of the church (and to some degree from God by breaking marriage laws) and therefore, should not participate in communion. The other sides says those who have broken away needing the healing of communion more than anyone else and should be encourage to accept communion. Not a theologian so I cannot answer this question.

 

 

What if you weren't married within the Catholic church for your 1st marriage? Can you still take communion if you divorce? Can you re-marry within the Catholic church if your 1st marriage was not in the church? Questions I've always wondered.

Won't get a chance to read through this until later tonight, but I'm definitely curious. Church teaching doesn't shift based on a synod of a few bishops, priests and some laypeople, so we know that's not the case, but I'm curious to see what they have to say.

What if you weren't married within the Catholic church for your 1st marriage? Can you still take communion if you divorce? Can you re-marry within the Catholic church if your 1st marriage was not in the church? Questions I've always wondered.

 

If a person not married in the Church, then the marriage is not sacramentally valid to begin with, so the dissolution of that marriage is a province exclusively of the state, not of the Church.

 

Yes that person may still take communion, as far as I know.

 

And the third answer is "Yes"; since that first marriage was not valid per the laws of the Church, then no annulment of that union would be required and the second marriage within the Church is perfectly valid.

What if you weren't married within the Catholic church for your 1st marriage? Can you still take communion if you divorce? Can you re-marry within the Catholic church if your 1st marriage was not in the church? Questions I've always wondered.

 

The church does recognize marriages outside the church. If you wanted to remarry inside the church, you would need to ask the diocese tribunal to investigate if the first marriage was valid. To put it very, very generally, a marriage outside the church is generally valid so long as four main characteristics were present when entering the marriage - free, total, faithful, fruitful.

 

Free - You must enter marriage freely, ie you cannot be forced to marry against your will. This is not as common in the US as it used to be but I believe there still are some cases where when pregnancy occurs, pressure from family to marry is so strong that the diocese tribunal determined that is some degree the young couple was under so much pressure that their freedom to choose was impaired. On the other hand, if those girls in Kenya were forced to marry their captors, later in life if they were to be free and want a Catholic marriage to some Catholic guy, the annulment of their first marriage would be very, very simple.

 

Total - If a couple goes into marriage with the view of let's see if this works out and if not, ah heck we will just divorce. In the eyes of the church, for a marriage to be valid, both parties must go in with the attitude that they are in it till the grave. This characteristic can also be a factor if it is determined that both parties were too young (or to be more direct, to immature or dumb) to be fully committed to marriage.

 

Faithful - You have to go into marriage accepting the fact that the person you marry is the last person you will ever sleep with, unless of course the person were to die early and you could marry again. In causes where marriage had infidelity early in the marriage, it is generally assumed that this cheating spouse probably was not really committed to fidelity if they were fooling around early in the marriage. Another case is if one or both of the couple had rather "active" sex lives leading up to marriage. It is generally assumed that one cannot go from being quite active to committed in mere months.

 

Fruitful - if a couple go into to marriage planning to not have (or at least try to have) at least one kid, the marriage is seen as invalid. Children are seen as inherent in marriage. If the couple cannot have children, so long as they do not more to prevent children, the marriage is valid. Also, if the couple is infertile, they are not expected to go to extraordinary lengths to have kids ie take on very expensive or extremely involved medical procedures to have kids.

 

OK, that was a lot more than I was planning, oh well.

If a person not married in the Church, then the marriage is not sacramentally valid to begin with, so the dissolution of that marriage is a province exclusively of the state, not of the Church.

 

Yes that person may still take communion, as far as I know.

 

And the third answer is "Yes"; since that first marriage was not valid per the laws of the Church, then no annulment of that union would be required and the second marriage within the Church is perfectly valid.

 

Are you sure about that????

Won't get a chance to read through this until later tonight, but I'm definitely curious. Church teaching doesn't shift based on a synod of a few bishops, priests and some laypeople, so we know that's not the case, but I'm curious to see what they have to say.

 

Aren't synods basically just discussing of church teaching not a plan to change them? In other words, they discuss church teaching and if they conclude the teaching is fine as is, basically the topic is settled. If they believe the teaching needs to be updated, then it may lead to something bigger. I believe Vatican II was preceded by a few synods. There have also been a few to discuss priestly marriage but most have ended that things stay as they are.

Are you sure about that????

 

Nope. Not anymore.

 

Why does the Church need to rule on whether a marriage was valid when it's considered to be canonically invalid prima facie? Seems like that's a bit confusing. So a Justice of the Peace wedding, with nothing inherently religious in the ceremony can bind two people in the eyes of the Church?

 

I'm of two minds: the Catholic Church recognizes baptisms from all Christian denominations and considers them sacramentally valid. At the same time, if I follow all the procedures and rubrics to celebrate Mass but I'm not a priest, I'm not really celebrating Mass am I?

 

I had no idea that the Church would consider extra-ecclesial marriages to be both valid and invalid at the same time. How does that work?

Aren't synods basically just discussing of church teaching not a plan to change them? In other words, they discuss church teaching and if they conclude the teaching is fine as is, basically the topic is settled. If they believe the teaching needs to be updated, then it may lead to something bigger. I believe Vatican II was preceded by a few synods. There have also been a few to discuss priestly marriage but most have ended that things stay as they are.

 

That's my understanding of synods as well.

Won't get a chance to read through this until later tonight, but I'm definitely curious. Church teaching doesn't shift based on a synod of a few bishops, priests and some laypeople, so we know that's not the case, but I'm curious to see what they have to say.

 

I say this with no disrespect or accusations because I don't know if you are, but are you implying that Church teachings have ever changed?

I say this with no disrespect or accusations because I don't know if you are, but are you implying that Church teachings have ever changed?

 

We like to pretend that they haven't, but the Second Vatican Council is a pretty big argument against that principle.

We like to pretend that they haven't, but the Second Vatican Council is a pretty big argument against that principle.

 

Can you please give me an example? Honestly. I mean teachings, not language or structure, I mean what Catholics believe.