If coal jobs are declining lets do something different - like hemp.

 

Well....

 

LOUISVILLE, Ky.: Kentucky ag agency sues for release of hemp seeds | Nation | Kentucky.com

 

 

The Federal government seems to want to flex its power at the expense of jobs in Kentucky.

 

"We are from the government and we are here to help"...(keep you poor).

Don't the federal regulations require land be returned as nearly as possible to its original state after surface mining or mountain top removal mining?

 

Is that good or not good for the local communities? I am not sure.

 

It seems that it may be more beneficial, at least in some cases to not return the land to its previous condition. i.e. can the community benefit if the it is rebuilt flat and usable for commercial use.

Don't the federal regulations require land be returned as nearly as possible to its original state after surface mining or mountain top removal mining?

 

Is that good or not good for the local communities? I am not sure.

 

It seems that it may be more beneficial, at least in some cases to not return the land to its previous condition. i.e. can the community benefit if the it is rebuilt flat and usable for commercial use.

 

It doesn't happen. You hardcore righties gripe and moan about burdensome regulations, but those regulations wouldn't be needed if coal operators actually operated in a fashion that was a bit more ethical in terms of cleaning up their own messes.

It doesn't happen. You hardcore righties gripe and moan about burdensome regulations, but those regulations wouldn't be needed if coal operators actually operated in a fashion that was a bit more ethical in terms of cleaning up their own messes.

 

But do the regulations prevent making the land more usable? I would have to say that regulations are needed in this area. But do the regulations benefit the community or are they a concept from inside the beltway?

But do the regulations prevent making the land more usable? I would have to say that regulations are needed in this area. But do the regulations benefit the community or are they a concept from inside the beltway?

To answer your question, in the past regulations did not prevent mining companies from making land more usable. A couple of examples are are an airport located near the Johnson-Martin Co. lines and a subdivision and golf course in Floyd County. Both projects were build in areas that were previously mined and reclaimed by the mountain top removal method. There are many similar post-mining land uses throughout the Central Appalachian coal field.

 

Unfortunately, mountain top removal has been one of the prime targets of Obama's war on coal. Companies cannot mine if they cannot get permits issued.

 

In areas where surface mining consists of contour mining, operators are required to restore land to its approximate original contour. In other words, hillside property must remain hillside property, whether the land owner likes it or not.

 

In my experience, the bad operators in the mining business that leave messes like Jim described have been the same type of individuals who used political clout to see that required inspections of nursing homes did not take place. In fact, I recall one black sheep of the mining industry (who was later convicted of federal charges) who used to boast about his weekly breakfast with a former Democratic governor.

To answer your question, in the past regulations did not prevent mining companies from making land more usable. A couple of examples are are an airport located near the Johnson-Martin Co. lines and a subdivision and golf course in Floyd County. Both projects were build in areas that were previously mined and reclaimed by the mountain top removal method. There are many similar post-mining land uses throughout the Central Appalachian coal field.

 

Unfortunately, mountain top removal has been one of the prime targets of Obama's war on coal. Companies cannot mine if they cannot get permits issued.

 

In areas where surface mining consists of contour mining, operators are required to restore land to its approximate original contour. In other words, hillside property must remain hillside property, whether the land owner likes it or not.

 

In my experience, the bad operators in the mining business that leave messes like Jim described have been the same type of individuals who used political clout to see that required inspections of nursing homes did not take place. In fact, I recall one black sheep of the mining industry (who was later convicted of federal charges) who used to boast about his weekly breakfast with a former Democratic governor.

 

Thank you.

Thank you.

Your're welcome. Fortunately, the good guys in the coal industry far outnumber the bad actors but they are the ones that get unfairly targeted by regulators and the politicians who pull their strings.

Your're welcome. Fortunately, the good guys in the coal industry far outnumber the bad actors but they are the ones that get unfairly targeted by regulators and the politicians who pull their strings.

 

Sad to hear but understand. Given the consequences of poor restoration its not hard to see why this has lead to stricter control.

 

Do operators have to put up a substantial bond to ensure the job of restoration gets done or done properly? Or if they fail to do it or go bankrupt does it just not get done? If the later, then that even more ammo for the regulators and their heavy handed authority. And it would seem from you comments that they use that authority for things other than the good of the local community sometimes.

Sad to hear but understand. Given the consequences of poor restoration its not hard to see why this has lead to stricter control.

 

Do operators have to put up a substantial bond to ensure the job of restoration gets done or done properly? Or if they fail to do it or go bankrupt does it just not get done? If the later, then that even more ammo for the regulators and their heavy handed authority. And it would seem from you comments that they use that authority for things other than the good of the local community sometimes.

There is no justification for what the Obama administration is doing. Some of the examples that I have seen used by the media to show poor jobs of mine reclamation are stock photos from the 1960s - years before the the current reclamation laws were passed.

 

Mining operators are required to post substantial bonds before mining commences and the bonds are not released until reclamation has been completed. Responsible mine operators are being shafted by the Obama administration. People like the one that I mentioned, who donate generously to politicians (often illegally), give the industry a black eye. They, and the corrupt politicians who provide them with cover deserve to be in prison but instances of mine operators walking away from their reclamation responsibilities are rare.

 

Many of the finest people I have ever met are executives in coal mining companies. You will find far more dishonest people in government and professions that require advanced degrees than you will in the coal mining industry. I have always believed that Kentucky has one of the most corrupt systems of government in the country and the biggest problem is that so much of the corruption is legal. At least it is not West Virginia.

Don't the federal regulations require land be returned as nearly as possible to its original state after surface mining or mountain top removal mining?

 

The problem is that the regulations only require "reclaiming" - which essentially just amounts to placing dirt over top of all of the exposed rock, hydro-seeding the dirt and then walking away. There is little concern given to the trees taken away, the valleys and existing natural water run-off that existed prior to the mountain topping (15 feet of original soil will soak up a LOT more rain water than the 1-2 feet that is placed back by the mining operations in the "reclaiming" process).

 

This is what a "reclaimed" area ends up looking like.

 

Another of the big mountain topping problems is that there are no regulations requiring the overburden material removed from the mountain top and placed into the adjacent valleys to be moved back or even removed from the valley that they have filled in.

 

(For an idea of scale, that's a bulldozer that stand's about 11-1/2 feet tall over on the left hand side of the picture near the edge of the fill-in material.)

^ This absolutely DESTROYS the water runoff system in the mountains. It's a pretty enormous problem when you have 5 square miles of formerly untouched mountains that have had all of the absorptive soils and vegetation stripped away and suddenly it's hit with a deluge of 1-1/2 inches of rain in the course of 8 hours. That's a WHOLE LOT of water with nowhere to go, and no valleys or streams left to direct it into the creeks, streams, and rivers where it used to end up. As a result, it ends up here:

 

 

^ That's an ACTUAL flood in Kentucky, caused by ACTUAL runoff influenced by mountain top mining. It was part of a presentation to be given to Senator McConnell and former Senator Jim Bunning. Ironically, both senators had "airplane trouble" on both of the dates that they had set up to meet for the presentation, and they couldn't make it. Bummer. I'm sure they were really concerned for their constituency.

Edited May 16, 201412 yr by Colonels_Wear_Blue

There's also the amount of waste that is produced and stored in the sludge dams next to the mining location presents a HUGE environmental concern.

 

^ Sludge Impoundment Dam & Reservoir

 

Anyone remember back in 2000 when the sludge dam broke on the Massey Energy site in Martin County? 306,000,000 gallons of coal sludge (30 times more than the oil spilled in the Exxon Valdez spill in Prince William Sound) spilled into the Wolf Creek and Coldwater Fork. The EPA called it the biggest environmental disaster ever east of the Mississippi River....only to be beaten 8 years later when the fly ash dike ruptured at the Kingston Fossil Coal Plant in Roane County, TN and spilled the 1.1 billion gallons contained by the 84-acre waste containment reservoir into the Emory River and Clinch River. GO COAL!!

 

By the way...Senator McConnell's wife, former Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao, was the person in charge of the investigation to both of these incidents. Her TOTAL fine in the spill in Martin County: a whopping $5,600. For the TVA Kingston Fossil spill, the investigation performed by the Dept. of Labor's Mine Safety and Health Administration (and still under the watch of Elaine Chao) decided not to fine the TVA, instead deferring to The Tennessee Department of Environment and Conservation's $11.5 million penalty against the federally owned corporation.

I can see that there is going to be a lot of disinformation presented in this thread. Hollow/valley fills do not block water running off from reclaimed areas. Surface mining changes the runoff system but it does not destroy it if the hollow fills properly designed.

 

Typically, sediment ponds must remain in place five years or more to capture sediment before water is released into the streams. Sometimes, the ponds are left in place permanently if the landowner desires. Is rainfall occasionally heavy enough to overwhelm the ponds and flow through the emergency spillways? Sure it is, no design is perfect, but mud does not routinely slide into people's yards following a storm.

 

I am assuming that ponds still have to be designed to handle 100-year storms, but 100 year storms will occur somewhere every year and when they do, you can count on an environmental radical being there with a camera and then represent the situation as being typical. It's not.

 

I don't profess to be a reclamation expert, but I am sure that I have been around more active and reclaimed mining operations than most BGP members have.

There's also the amount of waste that is produced and stored in the sludge dams next to the mining location presents a HUGE environmental concern.

 

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^ Sludge Impoundment Dam & Reservoir

 

Anyone remember back in 2000 when the sludge dam broke on the Massey Energy site in Martin County? 306,000,000 gallons of coal sludge (30 times more than the oil spilled in the Exxon Valdez spill in Prince William Sound) spilled into the Wolf Creek and Coldwater Fork. The EPA called it the biggest environmental disaster ever east of the Mississippi River....only to be beaten 8 years later when the fly ash dike ruptured at the Kingston Fossil Coal Plant in Roane County, TN and spilled the 1.1 billion gallons contained by the 84-acre waste containment reservoir into the Emory River and Clinch River. GO COAL!!

 

By the way...Senator McConnell's wife, former Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao, was the person in charge of the investigation to both of these incidents. Her TOTAL fine in the spill in Martin County: a whopping $5,600. For the TVA Kingston Fossil spill, the investigation performed by the Dept. of Labor's Mine Safety and Health Administration (and still under the watch of Elaine Chao) decided not to fine the TVA, instead deferring to The Tennessee Department of Environment and Conservation's $11.5 million penalty against the federally owned corporation.

What is your solution, Colonel? Would you close down all of the coal mines? Please explain in detail how they would operate if you were in charge.

Hollow/valley fills do not block water running off from reclaimed areas. Surface mining changes the runoff system but it does not destroy it if the hollow fills properly designed.

 

No, the fills don't block the runoff.....they just no longer direct the run-off to the places it is naturally supposed to go. If you fill in a valley, that water still goes somewhere. It's just not going to end up going to the place where the valley used to take it. Instead it ends up in places like the photo I shared in the post #26.