A common cop-out amongst the pro-choice crowd. But gay marriage and abortion have one major difference. Gay marriage is between two consenting adults. Abortion an innocent life is taken through no choice of their own. That comparison holds no water. I'm all for personal freedoms between consenting adults or if the decision affects no one but yourself. But when an innocent life is at stake your freedom does not supersede that child's right to life.

 

According to the law it does.

That is an illegal act. If murder was legal then I'd be okay with it. Simple process.

 

Since when in the state you reside is gay marriage legal. Just trying to understand your logic. You are fine with abortion because the law says its legal. You are also fine with gay marriage but the law says its illegal.

 

You would be fine with murder if the government told you it was ok? I don't know what to say to that. What if the government said slavery were still legal or women still had no right to vote? Not very good logic.

According to the law it does.

 

And this country doesn't have a history of unjust laws? Laws that remained legal on the books much longer than abortion has to date.

That is an illegal act. If murder was legal then I'd be okay with it. Simple process.

 

Slavery used to be legal, was slavery OK then or is just because something is legal does not make it just or moral.

Since when in the state you reside is gay marriage legal. Just trying to understand your logic. You are fine with abortion because the law says its legal. You are also fine with gay marriage but the law says its illegal.

 

Yep. But I won't be at any gay marriage rallies anytime soon either. It's not legal. I disagree that it should be dictated legal or illegal by the government but for now it is and that's just the way it goes.

 

 

If abortion is ruled illegal I won't be up in arms about it either. I am fine with people doing as they choose if it is legal. If someone wants to go through the possible psychological and emotional damage that an abortion causes then that is on them and between them and their God. If it is one day ruled illegal then so be it. That wouldn't bother me either. If it is ruled illegal I hope people would follow the law but as long as it is illegal then that is on them. No one in my family will ever have an abortion. What the family next door decides to do is on them according to the law. I can't stress that enough.

Slavery used to be legal, was slavery OK then or is just because something is legal does not make it just or moral.

 

If it is legal it becomes a right. Abortion is legal. Pro choice and pro abortion are two different things to me. Apparently to most of you pro choice means pro abortion.

 

You wouldn't have had slaves if you were a white man in the South in 1855?

And this country doesn't have a history of unjust laws? Laws that remained legal on the books much longer than abortion has to date.

 

Of course. And more unjust laws to come. Marijuana was allegedly ruled illegal because white men were scared that white women who smoked marijuana would want black men. Marijuana is allegedly illegal because of racism. I like marijuana but I like being an upstanding and law abiding citizen much more. I'm never going like every law that I have to follow and I'm not going to agree with every law that allows people to do things I don't agree with but I will abide by those laws(except for my bad habit of speeding) and I will respect people's rights to do things I may not agree with because they are protected by the law.

Yep. But I won't be at any gay marriage rallies anytime soon either. It's not legal. I disagree that it should be dictated legal or illegal by the government but for now it is and that's just the way it goes.

 

 

If abortion is ruled illegal I won't be up in arms about it either. I am fine with people doing as they choose if it is legal. If someone wants to go through the possible psychological and emotional damage that an abortion causes then that is on them and between them and their God. If it is one day ruled illegal then so be it. That wouldn't bother me either. If it is ruled illegal I hope people would follow the law but as long as it is illegal then that is on them. No one in my family will ever have an abortion. What the family next door decides to do is on them according to the law. I can't stress that enough.

I'm all for personal freedom its why I said gay marriage doesn't bug me or why I think the war on drugs is insane. But I guess we disagree on the fact that someones personal freedom stops when it infringes on someone else's freedom. Whether the government tells me its illegal or legal I know murder is wrong. I believe abortion to be murder regardless what some unintelligent suit in D.C. tells me murder is wrong regardless who that person is who has been murdered. Just like any unjust law in our nations history its our duty as citizens to fight for the rights of those who can not help themselves.

Of course. And more unjust laws to come. Marijuana was allegedly ruled illegal because white men were scared that white women who smoked marijuana would want black men. Marijuana is allegedly illegal because of racism. I like marijuana but I like being an upstanding and law abiding citizen much more. I'm never going like every law that I have to follow and I'm not going to agree with every law that allows people to do things I don't agree with but I will abide by those laws(except for my bad habit of speeding) and I will respect people's rights to do things I may not agree with because they are protected by the law.

 

Lol I have never heard that reason for drug laws. Drug laws are in place for the same reason we have dry counties, prohibition, soda bans, smoking laws etc., the government feels we are to stupid as a people to make these decisions on our own and we need big brother to tell us what to do. What you just stated sounded like some sort of conspiracy that belongs in a Oliver Stone movie.

I'm all for personal freedom its why I said gay marriage doesn't bug me or why I think the war on drugs is insane. But I guess we disagree on the fact that someones personal freedom stops when it infringes on someone else's freedom. Whether the government tells me its illegal or legal I know murder is wrong. I believe abortion to be murder regardless what some unintelligent suit in D.C. tells me murder is wrong regardless who that person is who has been murdered. Just like any unjust law in our nations history its our duty as citizens to fight for the rights of those who can not help themselves.

 

I understand. I am pro choice. Not pro abortion. I think the act of abortion is as selfish as suicide and like you said abortion is very similar and comparable to murder. Where we differ is in what the law allows and again if abortion is one day ruled illegal I won't have a problem with that either.

Lol I have never heard that reason for drug laws. Drug laws are in place for the same reason we have dry counties, prohibition, soda bans, smoking laws etc., the government feels we are to stupid as a people to make these decisions on our own and we need big brother to tell us what to do. What you just stated sounded like some sort of conspiracy that belongs in a Oliver Stone movie.

 

I'm just speaking about marijuana laws. Not all drug laws. All of the drugs were ruled illegal for different reasons. Maybe one day when I have time I'll go find that info and start a thread so it can be discussed. I promise you there are people who truly believe that marijuana was ruled illegal because of racism. I know that is shocking to believe(and I swear Jesse and Al are not behind that belief) but it is a belief. I'll try to find that info one day.

I'm just speaking about marijuana laws. Not all drug laws. All of the drugs were ruled illegal for different reasons. Maybe one day when I have time I'll go find that info and start a thread so it can be discussed. I promise you there are people who truly believe that marijuana was ruled illegal because of racism. I know that is shocking to believe(and I swear Jesse and Al are not behind that belief) but it is a belief. I'll try to find that info one day.

Some people also believe we didn't land on the moon or that the government was behind 9/11. There may have even been people that believed that marijuana would lead to interracial couples (gasp) but there are boatloads of other bogus reasons the govt used to actually pass drug laws.

 

But like you said thats a different topic.

Or I figured to call a spade a spade and to quit allowing the pro-choice crowd to dictate the conversation based on occurrences of rape when those cases are so rare most doctors will never see a case of rape and mother pregnant in their career. I learned a long time ago black and white answers normally don't work. Do not tell me there isn't away we can't save a majority of theses lives just because in a perfect world I would want to save them all. I'd like to solve world hunger but currently I can't does that make me a hypocrite because I still donate money to food kitchens? Solving the problem of abortion is a hard one. But I do know the pro-choice argument for the 95%+ of cases doesn't hold up with a majority of Americans. Just out of pure convenience or "its my body" doesn't pass the smell test to most people. When the pro-choice crowd gains sympathy is making the argument about rape or mothers health. Because those occur so infrequently its a fallacy to make them a majority of the argument. I don't have to be 100% ok with result just be more happy with the result than we have currently.

 

I'm not trying to garner any sympathy. I believe that it is hypocritical to believe that all children EXCEPT those that are a product of rape have a RIGHT to be born. It's that simple.

I'm not trying to garner any sympathy. I believe that it is hypocritical to believe that all children EXCEPT those that are a product of rape have a RIGHT to be born. It's that simple.

 

I think all children deserve to live but if I have a choice of saving 95/100 or 0/100. I will take the 95. Should people not of fought for partial birth abortion bans because they couldn't outlaw all abortions?

 

It's much easier to save a majority of these children if we separate the pro-choice cop out for all abortions which is that of those that result from rape. Again as a male I understand as much as a man could on how devastating rape is and I think its easier to save millions if we fight one battle at a time. What is the old saying Rome wasn't built in a day. Fight the battles you can win now.

I think all children deserve to live but if I have a choice of saving 95/100 or 0/100. I will take the 95. Should people not of fought for partial birth abortion bans because they couldn't outlaw all abortions?

 

It's much easier to save a majority of these children if we separate the pro-choice cop out for all abortions which is that of those that result from rape. Again as a male I understand as much as a man could on how devastating rape is and I think its easier to save millions if we fight one battle at a time. What is the old saying Rome wasn't built in a day. Fight the battles you can win now.

 

It is interesting that you keep using the phrase "cop out." That's exactly the same phrase that I'd use for your avoidance of really discussing whether or not the child of rape has the same right to live as any other. In my opinion, if it is a life, it does.

 

If I believe that life begins at conception, then unequivocally for me, the child of rape is 100% the same as a child that results from consentual sex. If we are considering the life of the child, it absolutely should not matter the circumstances of his/her conception. The child should not be held accountable for his/her biological father's misdeeds. I have to say that I get quite disgusted when I hear people arguing that they are "pro-life" but then exclude the children of rape because of what affect their birth might have on the mother. As terrible as rape can be, the life of the child should supercede the pain of the mother IF you believe that life begins at conception.

 

If I don't believe that life begins at conception, well...when does it begin? When it is viable? When is that, really? It's something that I've never been able to come to grips with. For me personally, the choice would NEVER have been abortion, unless the child could not survive. (I can no longer have children now.) But, I don't think that I can make that decision for others, if I can't quite be sure when life begins.

 

I am never firm in my thoughts on this. At some point, I may move firmly into the "pro-life" crowd, but undoubtedly if I do, I'll argue just as adamantly for the child of rape as I will for any other. I'll also realize that simply arguing "pro-life" and not working toward helping women (mostly young and poor) with solutions to their pregnancies that I, again, would not be truly pro-"life" but more pro-"you got pregnant, deal with it your darn self...and it better not cost me a penny in welfare, either!"

 

I also find it hypocritical to support oral contraceptive use while promoting that "life begins at conception." The "pill" works, in part, by not allowing a fertilized egg (conception has occurred) to attach to the uterine wall.

 

Let me also point out that there have been a couple of posters mentioning that a man could never know what it is like to be raped. Indeed, they can.