Unemployment claims ticked up this week. Gasoline is approaching $4. You can be sure the Democrats will be doing everything they can to keep the focus on distractions like this to play off the class envy rather than have the debate turn to this administration's performance over the past 4 years. It's their only hope to squeaking by this election.

 

You can throw the talking point of class envy around all you want but the facts remain the same. Over the last 30 years under the current tax environment the concentrations of wealth and income have continued to increase only for the top 1 or 2 percent. While wealth and income trends down for everyone else. The theory of top down, trickle down, supply side or whatever else it's know as simply doesn't work. If it did those levels would not be decreasing for the majority of Americans, nor would unemployement be above 8%. Jobs aren't created nor are salaries increased because the money is pocketed. I'd be fine with the current progressive rate structure. I would get rid of deductions and instead just lower the rate for each bracket by 5% or so but I'd eliminate things like equity swaps that allow the folks that make most of the money pay virtually nothing in taxes.

How many people in this country can structure their salary so that if comes in the form of stocks and dividends so that they only have to pay capital gains tax which puts them at the same tax rate as someone making less than $35k a year? Very fair, especially when they can claim a loss in other areas and pay 0%.

 

Don't you think worrying about what they're paying in taxes on investments rather than worrying about how we get people to invest is counterproductive?

You can throw the talking point of class envy around all you want but the facts remain the same. Over the last 30 years under the current tax environment the concentrations of wealth and income have continued to increase only for the top 1 or 2 percent. While wealth and income trends down for everyone else. The theory of top down, trickle down, supply side or whatever else it's know as simply doesn't work. If it did those levels would not be decreasing for the majority of Americans, nor would unemployement be above 8%. Jobs aren't created nor are salaries increased because the money is pocketed. I'd be fine with the current progressive rate structure. I would get rid of deductions and instead just lower the rate for each bracket by 5% or so but I'd eliminate things like equity swaps that allow the folks that make most of the money pay virtually nothing in taxes.

 

So trickle down taxation works? That doesn't make sense.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We haven't lived in a free market society. You want to blame the concentration of wealth on something? Blame it in the mixed market we have now.

You can throw the talking point of class envy around all you want but the facts remain the same. Over the last 30 years under the current tax environment the concentrations of wealth and income have continued to increase only for the top 1 or 2 percent. While wealth and income trends down for everyone else. The theory of top down, trickle down, supply side or whatever else it's know as simply doesn't work. If it did those levels would not be decreasing for the majority of Americans, nor would unemployement be above 8%. Jobs aren't created nor are salaries increased because the money is pocketed. I'd be fine with the current progressive rate structure. I would get rid of deductions and instead just lower the rate for each bracket by 5% or so but I'd eliminate things like equity swaps that allow the folks that make most of the money pay virtually nothing in taxes.

The current tax environment hasn't been in place for 30 years. The folks making the most money pay the majority of the tax. To say they pay virtually nothing is flat out incorrect. It's the bottom 50% that pay virtually nothing. To blame the plite of the bottom 98% - 99% of people on the top 1%-2% is extremely misguided.

 

Let's have it your way and get rid of deductions and lower the rates 5%. What changes? Other than the bottom 50% actually pay some tax now and the uber rich pay a few more % points. Does that make the middle and lower class all of sudden have more money?

Perhaps. But the loopholes available to the uber-wealthy are not realistically there for middle-class folks. Not without retaining an expensive phalanx of tax accountants, anyway. People like Romney file tax returns that take up whole shelves. Pretty sure there's more going on in those returns than the basic 1040A I and most everybody else uses.

You would be correct. I would say it is safe to say that is because those laws have been crafted, written, and designed by the people the same folks those laws are designed to protect, D and R alike. That being said, if the average Joe had to write a check to the Govt. every quarter/month/year to pay their income taxes, as opposed to having it deducted from their paycheck by their employer, and have their employer be tax collector for the Govt, I would imagine folks would vote MUCH differently than what they do. There is a reason our tax code is ridiculous.

You can throw the talking point of class envy around all you want but the facts remain the same. Over the last 30 years under the current tax environment the concentrations of wealth and income have continued to increase only for the top 1 or 2 percent. While wealth and income trends down for everyone else. The theory of top down, trickle down, supply side or whatever else it's know as simply doesn't work. If it did those levels would not be decreasing for the majority of Americans, nor would unemployement be above 8%. Jobs aren't created nor are salaries increased because the money is pocketed. I'd be fine with the current progressive rate structure. I would get rid of deductions and instead just lower the rate for each bracket by 5% or so but I'd eliminate things like equity swaps that allow the folks that make most of the money pay virtually nothing in taxes.

We all know how well your favorite economic models in Cuba, Venezuela, and China work for their citizens.

If it did those levels would not be decreasing for the majority of Americans, nor would unemployement be above 8%. Jobs aren't created nor are salaries increased because the money is pocketed. I'd be fine with the current progressive rate structure. I would get rid of deductions and instead just lower the rate for each bracket by 5% or so but I'd eliminate things like equity swaps that allow the folks that make most of the money pay virtually nothing in taxes.

 

U3 rate which isn't the accurate unemployment number has it at 8%. The actual unemployment number - U6 - is much higher, say around 15-16%. Our problems are not simply the rich are pocketing their money. Not that that is a bad thing. Our problems lay in our systems structure. Its our minimum wage laws making low skilled workers artificially more expensive than what the job is worth. Its our resources and money going to services and industries where the consumer didn't decide it should go. Its the Federal Reserve setting artificial interest rates that are not reflective of what the market says they should be. Its the Fed printing more and more money out of thin air causing our dollar to inflate and devaluing our dollar which in itself is a tax.

The current tax environment hasn't been in place for 30 years. The folks making the most money pay the majority of the tax. To say they pay virtually nothing is flat out incorrect. It's the bottom 50% that pay virtually nothing. To blame the plite of the bottom 98% - 99% of people on the top 1%-2% is extremely misguided.

 

Let's have it your way and get rid of deductions and lower the rates 5%. What changes? Other than the bottom 50% actually pay some tax now and the uber rich pay a few more % points. Does that make the middle and lower class all of sudden have more money?

 

Does wonders for the deficeit that I thought you were worried about. It allows popular and much needed social programs that keep seniors above the poverty line and with medical care solvent. It would prevent social safety nets from being cut so theyer are ther for people when they need a hand up. We might be able to fix roads and bridges and make many improvements to other areas. I know this, it is not fair for me to pay an effective tax rate of 8 or 9 % (I'm in the 15% percent bracket and take my deductions) while folks like Warren Buffet and Mitt Romney who are in the 35% bracket can pay a less percentage or nothing at all. Our country's tax bracket is progressive for a reason but it's with things previously discussed in this thread that keep that progressive structure from being a reality and creates a revenue problem.

Don't you think worrying about what they're paying in taxes on investments rather than worrying about how we get people to invest is counterproductive?

 

Not when our country is relying on them to pay taxes on their income and they are utilizing "investments" to avoid that tax responsibility.

We all know how well your favorite economic models in Cuba, Venezuela, and China work for their citizens.

 

So, there is nothing in between trickle down capitalism and full throated Socialism or Communism? Hank Jr. would be impressed with that line of nuanced thinking.

Does wonders for the deficeit that I thought you were worried about. It allows popular and much needed social programs that keep seniors above the poverty line and with medical care solvent. It would prevent social safety nets from being cut so theyer are ther for people when they need a hand up. We might be able to fix roads and bridges and make many improvements to other areas. I know this, it is not fair for me to pay an effective tax rate of 8 or 9 % (I'm in the 15% percent bracket and take my deductions) while folks like Warren Buffet and Mitt Romney who are in the 35% bracket can pay a less percentage or nothing at all. Our country's tax bracket is progressive for a reason but it's with things previously discussed in this thread that keep that progressive structure from being a reality and creates a revenue problem.

Once again you can stop with the sound bites. Warren Buffet and Mitt Romney are not paying less tax, % or $ wise, than you. That's hyberpole from the left to get the base to rally against the big bad rich guy. Our deficit isn't a revenue problem, at least from individual tax revenue. You can raise taxes on the rich all you want but that isn't going to get us out of debt or eliminate the deficit.

U3 rate which isn't the accurate unemployment number has it at 8%. The actual unemployment number - U6 - is much higher, say around 15-16%. Our problems are not simply the rich are pocketing their money. Not that that is a bad thing. Our problems lay in our systems structure. Its our minimum wage laws making low skilled workers artificially more expensive than what the job is worth. Its our resources and money going to services and industries where the consumer didn't decide it should go. Its the Federal Reserve setting artificial interest rates that are not reflective of what the market says they should be. Its the Fed printing more and more money out of thin air causing our dollar to inflate and devaluing our dollar which in itself is a tax.

 

I thought, that the reason for the argument that the Bush tax cuts should be made permanent was that it has and would spur capital investment. This in turn would create jobs by all the hiring from existing business expansion and new start up businesses being created. I agree that tax rates don't effect job creation one bit which is why I don't believe those tax cuts should be extended. I personally believe our economy is what it is from now on because of the ability to off shore manufacturing. I read somewhere the other day that unemployement amoung college graduates is 3 or 4 %, the days of highschool graduates or less being able to get a good factory job and having a good middle class life style are for right or wrong reasons gone forever.

Once again you can stop with the sound bites. Warren Buffet and Mitt Romney are not paying less tax, % or $ wise, than you. That's hyberpole from the left to get the base to rally against the big bad rich guy. Our deficit isn't a revenue problem, at least from individual tax revenue. You can raise taxes on the rich all you want but that isn't going to get us out of debt or eliminate the deficit.

 

What sound bite, I think it was George Will talking a couple of weeks ago on meet the press or one of those Sunday morning shows that Mitt Romney probably didn't pay any taxes in 2009? Did you, I know I did? Is George Will from the left? I see our deficit as a revenue problem because I'd rather make sure those making over $250k pay a little more than I would have seniors decide between medicine, food or rent. If our elected officials don't want taxes raised then cut spending on defense which takes up way more of the budget than social safety net programs.

You can throw the talking point of class envy around all you want but the facts remain the same. Over the last 30 years under the current tax environment the concentrations of wealth and income have continued to increase only for the top 1 or 2 percent. While wealth and income trends down for everyone else. The theory of top down, trickle down, supply side or whatever else it's know as simply doesn't work. If it did those levels would not be decreasing for the majority of Americans, nor would unemployement be above 8%. Jobs aren't created nor are salaries increased because the money is pocketed. I'd be fine with the current progressive rate structure. I would get rid of deductions and instead just lower the rate for each bracket by 5% or so but I'd eliminate things like equity swaps that allow the folks that make most of the money pay virtually nothing in taxes.

 

The facts remain that if you buy into the class envy talking points and don't hold your politicians accountable for their failures, nothing will change.

So after over 20 post I think it's safe to assume that Harry Reid, bide, and Obama pay only the taxes required of them and not one red cent more. Correct? A simPle yes or no will do.