June 29, 201214 yr The legitimate gun dealers knew what was going on. They had ATF in the backroom monitoring the same person purchase over and over again. A good response to this fantasy: PrairiePundit: Defending Fast and Furious is a fools errrand The 'pushback' on the article is itself news - in some places.... Fast and Furious: Oversight pushes back on Fortune report - POLITICO.com Fortune Fast and Furious Report Doesn't Change Much - Riehl World View Fortune Magazine Tries to Tell The "Truth" About Fast and Furious, Fails Miserably - Katie Pavlich Examples of article being 'pumped' in blogs and forums: Shocking new revelations about a Darrell Issa conspiracy - Jimmy Zuma - Open Salon FORTUNE Magazine Questions GOP Fast and Furious Narrative | Resurgence | Big Think Fortune reporter: ‘Fast and Furious’ the fault of weak laws pushed by gun lobby | The Raw Story Daily Kos: Fortune: Much of what you think you know about 'Fast and Furious' may not be the case at all Always love the daily KOS...at least they are honest about their partisanship. Unlike the next entry.... The ulimate pump and Alinsky move by who else...Media Matters.... Will Fox Report On Fortune Bombshell That Fast And Furious Didn't Involve Gunwalking? | Media Matters for America Here is a good one: Little Green Footballs - Must Read: Fortune Magazine Totally Destroys the 'Fast and Furious' Fake Outrage [h=2]Must Read: Fortune Magazine Totally Destroys the ‘Fast and Furious’ Fake Outrage[/h] Good info. Let me digest it. BTW the author did do an interview: Fortune reporter on AC360: Fast and Furious gun walking evidence "misconstrued, incorrect" – CNN Press Room - CNN.com Blogs
June 29, 201214 yr Obviously this from one of the links above , if true, is a nail in the coffin for Voth. (Disregard the poor grammar). Fact: During Operation Fast and Furious, gun dealers repeatedly emailed Voth, asking whether guns they were selling under orders from ATF, were ending up in the wrong hands. Voth assured them they were not. More than two thousands guns trafficked into Mexico and hundreds of dead victims later, that turned out to be a lie. Gun dealers repeatedly raised concerns about ATF telling them to allow straw purchasers using false ID and loads of cash to buy weapons. In 2010, a gun dealer emailed Voth because a straw purchaser had placed a large order and the dealer wanted to know if he should order more stock. Once again, so he could comply with ATF's order to sell. Voth told him, go right ahead. Order the guns, sell to the bad guys.
June 29, 201214 yr The laws are the laws. AZ is simply more lax than many which obviously is a factor. Can that even be disputed? The report said that a guy on food stamps shows up and buys $300k worth of guys over a period of time and then transfers them yet ATF can't do anything. Do you dispute that they can't do anything? Based on what you know how could the ATF have handled it better? What could they have done to prevent the Border Patrol agent from being shot with a gun bought in AZ? You may be right but I still haven't seen the "smoking gun" to prove that the ATF failed miserably. I'm asking for you to back up your belief. Maybe if Holder would turn over the documents.... Surely you don't think it's the fault of the NRA? The gun shop owners did not want to sell these weapons, but Voth reassured them the ATF was tracking the weapons. Who was more lax? In the CBS interview with Dodson surveillance video in the interview shows straw purchasers leaving gun shops with boxes of weapons. Documents showed these guns were showing up at crime scenes in Mexico and ATF supervisors actually keeping track of this information. Why did they let go of their top suspect when they had him in custody? I'm speaking of the man who purchased the guns found at Agent Terry’s death scene. You ask me what the ATF could have done to keep Agent Terry from being shot with a gun bought in Arizona. My answer is not have gun shop owners to sell to criminals. As Issa’s press secretary stated in an email, the Fortune article contains factual errors – including the false statement that Chairman Issa has called for Attorney General Holder’s resignation – and multiple distortions. It also hides critical information from readers – including a report in the Wall Street Journal – indicating that its primary sources may be facing criminal charges. Congressional staff gave Fortune Magazine numerous examples of false statements made by the story’s primary source and the magazine did not dispute this information. It did not, however, explain this material to its readers. The one point of agreement the Committee has with this story is its emphasis on the role Justice Department prosecutors, not just ATF agents, played in guns being transferred to drug cartels in Mexico. The allegations made in the story have been examined and rejected by congressional Republicans, Democrats, and the Justice Department. I find the article very one sided. I find it interesting that you have so many questions about Holder being held in contempt but very few to no questions regarding Holder not turning over the documents. No questions for Obama signing Executive Order on the issue?
June 29, 201214 yr Maybe if Holder would turn over the documents.... Surely you don't think it's the fault of the NRA? ? I don't think F&F is the fault of the NRA. I do think the NRA has had an impact on the AZ gun laws which IMO are too lax.
June 29, 201214 yr The gun shop owners did not want to sell these weapons, but Voth reassured them the ATF was tracking the weapons. Who was more lax? In the CBS interview with Dodson surveillance video in the interview shows straw purchasers leaving gun shops with boxes of weapons. Documents showed these guns were showing up at crime scenes in Mexico and ATF supervisors actually keeping track of this information. Why did they let go of their top suspect when they had him in custody? I'm speaking of the man who purchased the guns found at Agent Terry’s death scene. You ask me what the ATF could have done to keep Agent Terry from being shot with a gun bought in Arizona. My answer is not have gun shop owners to sell to criminals. As Issa’s press secretary stated in an email, the Fortune article contains factual errors – including the false statement that Chairman Issa has called for Attorney General Holder’s resignation – and multiple distortions. It also hides critical information from readers – including a report in the Wall Street Journal – indicating that its primary sources may be facing criminal charges. Congressional staff gave Fortune Magazine numerous examples of false statements made by the story’s primary source and the magazine did not dispute this information. It did not, however, explain this material to its readers. The one point of agreement the Committee has with this story is its emphasis on the role Justice Department prosecutors, not just ATF agents, played in guns being transferred to drug cartels in Mexico. The allegations made in the story have been examined and rejected by congressional Republicans, Democrats, and the Justice Department. I find the article very one sided. I find it interesting that you have so many questions about Holder being held in contempt but very few to no questions regarding Holder not turning over the documents. No questions for Obama signing Executive Order on the issue? Somehow I had missed the part where gunshop owners had emailed their concerns. To your last point I asked a simple question about how can a guy be in contempt when his boss (POTUS) will not release the documents and has used a tried and true tactic of Exec Priv. I am not well-connected in the WH so I don't know what's in the documents that are being protected so it would be hard to comment on the veracity of the Exec Priv.
June 29, 201214 yr Author Well the Justice Dept. has now said they won't pursue action against their boss, Eric Holder. Seems to me they would have to follow orders of the House, but I may be wrong.
June 29, 201214 yr I don't think F&F is the fault of the NRA. I do think the NRA has had an impact on the AZ gun laws which IMO are too lax. Careful throwing rocks in the glass house. Kentucky is pretty much on par with AZ in that category. While that article noted some 'lax' AZ laws. The article seemed to compare them to Cal or NY laws which are at the other end of the spectrum. Most states do not require licenses to purchase and do not limit purchases. But I do know of some young enthusiasts that have been told 'another purchase puts you on a watch list' when they made a number of purchases in a short period.
June 29, 201214 yr Well the Justice Dept. has now said they won't pursue action against their boss, Eric Holder. Seems to me they would have to follow orders of the House, but I may be wrong. It must depend on the meaning of 'must'......
June 29, 201214 yr Well the Justice Dept. has now said they won't pursue action against their boss, Eric Holder. Seems to me they would have to follow orders of the House, but I may be wrong. I'm 99.9% sure there is legal precedence where Exec Priv causes the criminal charges to be left without action.
June 29, 201214 yr Careful throwing rocks in the glass house. Kentucky is pretty much on par with AZ in that category. . If the shoe fits...
June 30, 201214 yr Well the Justice Dept. has now said they won't pursue action against their boss, Eric Holder. Seems to me they would have to follow orders of the House, but I may be wrong. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2012/06/29/letter-from-justice-department-to-boehner-on-holder-contempt-vote/ Letter to Boehner from Justice Department.
June 30, 201214 yr http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2012/06/29/letter-from-justice-department-to-boehner-on-holder-contempt-vote/ Letter to Boehner from Justice Department. Anyone that is surprised by this step by the DOJ hasn't been paying attention. The House knew this was going to happen before they voted.
June 30, 201214 yr Anyone that is surprised by this step by the DOJ hasn't been paying attention. The House knew this was going to happen before they voted. That is why the passed resolutions on both criminal and civil charges. Criminal needs DOJ attorneys. I believe the civil does not. I believe the law says the attorneys assigned 'shall' draw up the charges and present to a grand jury. It is not optional - regardless of who the accused is. Contempt of Congress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Following a contempt citation, the presiding officer of the chamber is instructed to refer the matter to the U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia;[9] according to the law it is the "duty" of the U.S. Attorney to refer the matter to a grand jury for action. Comment: The attorneys who are not taking this to a grand jury are basically abandoning their post. As officers of the court they are derelict. Lawyers - comments?
June 30, 201214 yr I don't think F&F is the fault of the NRA. I do think the NRA has had an impact on the AZ gun laws which IMO are too lax. Which laws in particular are you speaking of?
June 30, 201214 yr Somehow I had missed the part where gunshop owners had emailed their concerns. To your last point I asked a simple question about how can a guy be in contempt when his boss (POTUS) will not release the documents and has used a tried and true tactic of Exec Priv. I am not well-connected in the WH so I don't know what's in the documents that are being protected so it would be hard to comment on the veracity of the Exec Priv. Do you think it's possible they're trying to hide something?
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