Tubby's Best Friend

Thanks Woody... I wish though the KHSAA had given us details of how they came about the new setup. But then again we probably wouldnt have gotten to page 10 here at BGP.

Your Welcome. I guess my question is why did they want them in opposite sides? My thoughts is for the cash. But when I suggested they intentionally did it, I was met with ridicule that I was a conspiracy monger. I also find it prepostorous to think that the blind draw fell as it did. UNLESS, they only drew 1-4 in one draw and 5-8 in another draw. If so, the chances become much greater that you could have a draw produce what is being published. It also would make more sense to limit the draw in this manner, so as to remove the possibility of a matchup of say Pikeville vs Trigg Co. in round 3. Region 1's farthest opponent could only be Region 4 and likewise Region 5 could only Draw Region 8 as a farthest opponent. This way you keep a East and West setup for a championship. I dont know if this is how they drew it, but if so, it COULD EASILY fall as it did.

Not at all concerned about 07-08. This is totally a hypothetical to bolster the argument that it is feasible and fair in comparison to lay the districts out with all of Jefferson Co. on one side of the bracket. The KHSAA chose to split them and left the East side with 30 teams vs. 24 teams on the West side. I just flipped the team totals East West to show that they easily could have put all of the Jeff. Co. schools together and they didnt.

I'm away for a day and things seem to get worse. Well 02Ram54, you said noone presented a good layout. I've got one for you. We debated the other night about this perfect setup that you think we had. But just as you seem to avoid Woody's questions, so did you on my questions. I pointed out that the current alignment, even though some of you wanted to make it out that it was geographically perfect and even, it was in fact unbalanced at 24 teams in the West and 30 teams in the East. My premise is that it was designed that way to get the Louisville schools on opposite sides to help steer an all Louisville championship. You scoffed. Others also present the 54 teams as split 27 on each side East and West, but they are not. I am presenting you below the districts in the same numbers as the KHSAA has it now, with 30 teams in one side and 24 in the other side. Except I put 30 in the West and 24 in the East. They are geographically balanced and put all Louisville teams in the West. Which I can't imagine anyone could look at these and feel they are any less fair or geographically off balance than what it is now. I laid them out just as they are now as far as format goes, Districts of 8,8,7,7 and 6,6,6,6 as the number of teams in the respective districts, only I flipped the West and East with the numbers. If the East could have 30 teams why not the West? Let the debate begin. R1-D1 Barren, Christian, Graves, Greenwood, Marshall, Owensboro, Apollo, Daviess R1-D2 Warren Central, Grayson, Henderson, Ohio, John Hardin, North Hardin, Central Hardin, Meade R2-D1 Bullitt Central, Butler, Iroquois, Manuel, Male, PRP, St. X R2-D2 Ballard, Eastern, Fern Creek, Seneca, Trinity, Southern, Nelson R3-D1 Boone, Ryle, Conner, Holmes, Dixie, Scott R3-D2 Scott Co., Woodford, Oldham, Shelby, Campbell, Simon Kenton R4-D1 Clark, Bryan Station, Henry Clay, Lafayette, Dunbar, Tates Creek R4-D2 N. Laurel, S. Laurel, Montgomery, Lincoln, Whitley, Madison Central

You pointed out it was equal and I show you it isnt. Now you want to argue what is logical. Is it logical in the current alignment there are 4 districts on each side, on the West side there are 6 teams in each district. On the East side the districts are aligned with 8,8,7,7 respectively. If they can be that way with Louisville separate you can easily reverse it and go 8,8,7,7 on the West with all the Louisville schools there and 6,6,6,6 on the East side without them. I could also point out that Nelson County geographically is East of Jefferson Co. yet they are on the west side of the bracket. Bullitt Co. is due south of Jefferson, they are on the West side of the bracket while those 6 Jefferson schools are on the East side of the bracket. Shall we continue???

This is the simple truth: In Class 4A, there are 24 teams in the West and 30 teams in the East. FACT. If you moved the 6 Louisville teams from the East bracket into the West bracket, then guess what you have? You have 30 teams in the West bracket and 24 in the East bracket, just as it is balanced now. Only all of the Louisville teams are on the West. I guess this posting of the facts makes me a conspiracy theorist.

So your biggest grip is that with this new system that it will be certain in some years that Louisville wont get both teams in the final game. That is it in a nutshell. I dont understand why you would oppose a strictly Louisville Super Class. That provides you what you want in a championship and the state will not be a factor in "your world".

Honestly, I give up. I try to speak honestly with respect and this is what you give me. Maybe there are other counties in Kentucky currently that a school on one side of the county is on the west side of the bracket and another school in the same county is on the east side of the bracket. I dont know. I do know in Class A that Carroll Co is on the west side of the bracket, but Trinity which is west of Carroll is on the East Side of 4A. Dont explain to me about number of schools and such, I know all about it. But I am convinced the layout of districts and brackets initially was to give the possibility of an all Louisville final in 4A.

OK. Let me approach you in a different way. You feel the 4A system is perfect. But I wonder why it is that way now and is it fair for T and X to be put on opposite sides of the bracket? Are any of the Lexington schools separate? Why do we have Louisville schools laid out so they can meet in the finals and not Lexington schools? My point is that if you set brackets and districts geographically, as they do the rest of the state then the louisville schools truthfully shouldnt be set up in the beginning with the chance to meet in the finals. They should all be on one side of the bracket. But currently in my opinion it is done solely by the KHSAA for the money. Do you at least agree with this point? Everyone knows that at this point in time X and T are the two best teams and if they are on opposite sides of the bracket they have that chance to meet. But what happened in 04? Was Scott Co the 2nd best team? That is truly subjective opinion. And if one of these teams slip a bit then you really dont have what you think is a better system. It is the same as the other classes. All Im looking for is the slightest bit of common ground that maybe this change can be good for the whole state and really not effect Jefferson Co so adversly.

The premise you guys argue is you dont get the best teams to the final game. My argument is that you generally dont get the best teams to the finals anyway. If you geographically eliminate teams it is a crap shoot who gets to the final. He was saying that undeserving teams will advance in the playoffs, when in fact it is at least in my opinion better to rotate the region finalists, rather than setting in stone that Russell's region champ always face Belfry's region champ. Reality is that neither way assures that the 2 best teams get to Papa Johns. Heck last season Newport could lay claim they were the 2nd best team in the state since they took Russell to overtime. Yet they had to face them in week 3 of the playoffs. Just as X and T might this season. So Unfair!!!!

My problem with his statement has little to do with the substance or argument. It is the tone and closed mind of "this is bad, because I say it is bad".

The politicians dont have us fighting. You have us fighting by not looking at this from my point of view. I gave you the benefit of saying that maybe this might work maybe it wont. But you unequivically state that it is bad. End of story. You wish not to debate or look from a different perspective. You state your opinion as fact. And I opposed to you do care about the state of football in Kentucky as a whole. "You only care about 4A." That is your statement, not mine.

Why dont they deserve it? If Belfry was the 2nd best team in the state, why dont they deserve to play in the championship game at Papa Johns? Since they had to play Russell in the semi's, we dont know if they possibly werent a TD or 2 better than O Cath.

That is your opinion. I guess we should send your word to the KHSAA, because as you say it is as simple as that. Your word is gospel. This kind of debate is what irritates me on preps. Your arrogance of the Ville will win the title no matter what you do, but you moan that you cant get 2 Ville teams to the finals. But if someone suggests splitting and giving the Ville their own class you whine about not getting the opportunity to crush the other teams out in the state. Lay out what you want and tell us what is best for us below average Kentuckians that live outside Louisville.

Exactly...:ylsuper:

With this argument you look at it totally from your teams perspective. As I said my team has year in and year out had to face NKY in the first round of the playoffs. We have NEVER had that opportunity that you speak of to face any other teams out in the state. Roads to any championship are also NEVER equal. I agree with Woody in the fact that the two best teams normally dont meet for the title anyway. And I cant see that this adjustment can have the devastating effect you seem to think it can have on the state as a whole.

Ram95. If Manual hasnt won since 60 why oppose a different approach. Maybe the previous playoff formats had an adverse effect, maybe not. Why so adament that this is so bad, before we even see it play out? There have been changes throughout the years and without seeing the results of the changes we truly cant make a judgement on what can or cant be good for the game. I honestly dont see this as a major change. You still have to win playoff games to win a title. The best teams find ways to win regardless of the opponent or the week they play them.

Woody, I have begged for a reduction in the number of teams in the playoffs. The 1-4 games are traditionally blowouts and very few 4's win. I dont see any reason to believe this new format will be better or worse. But I lean towards it possibly might make for a few more competitive games. What about those districts where tiebreakers sometimes move teams from top to bottom? It is possible for a #1 to play a #4 they lost to in the regular season. Especially those balanced districts with 6 to 8 teams in them.

Woody, I have been following your posts and they are excellent. But you are wasting your time. It is like me fighting the seeding issue in Basketball. Proponents want to always argue that the best teams dont get to the region tournament and it cheapens it for two top teams to meet in a district elimination opener. But when you point out that you could have 4 teams in one district that are clearly better than 4 in another district, you still allow two from the weaker district to advance to the region. Does that not cheapen it? Unless you plan to seed the entire state AFTER the season you can never set forth a playoff system to TRY to get the best teams to the state final. If playoffs in any form are geographically situated you can NEVER get the two best teams to the state finals with any certainty. Your points about Cov Cath-Highlands is equal to New Cath-Beechwood, I feel to a reasonable belief that many years those teams have been the two best teams in the state in their respective classes. Quite possibly Russell and Belfry were the two best teams in Class AA the past two seasons, is their an uproar or screaming for changes to get these two teams to Papa Johns? My team, Raceland along with our district bretheren will have the opportunity to advance farther in this system since we traditionally have to face NewCath-Beechwood in the opening rounds. We have never gotten to see how we stack up with other areas of the state, because we were annually just a speed bump on the way to another NKY Class A Title. I can see this actually generating more interest in the state and seeing some teams improve their games by advancing deeper in the playoffs and seizing that moment of building a program, that traditionally had their playoff hopes crushed early and violently against the same teams year in year out. If your teams are the best they can win in any format. Line them up and play them. Louisville should be progressive and embrace change. It is us uncivilized members of the state that normally get accused of never wanting to move or change. Looks like the city slickers are the ones that dont want change since they seem to have a good thing going.

I hate to get in the middle of an argument, but. If they were 10's in 98 then how could they be 12's in 01? Looks like if you are 10 in 98, then 11 in 99, 12 in 00? We all know girls cant play sports, especially with guys. If that girl was on the team, I am sure it was purely for Title IX reasons. She should have stayed home and played hopscotch and not taken the spot from one of the boys who probably deserved it.

An excellent addition for Asbury. They have a gem. Good Luck!!!

Why did the 15th play their Region Tourney 1 or 2 weeks earlier than the other regions? Just curious.

You and I actually agree for a change.

As I said, I wouldn't consider Oak Hill a high school team, they put together teams with players across the nation. Basic top notch high school teams like South Laurel and J-Town and even schools from across the nation that are built basically from within their own state would not beat a college team.

The state of Virginia must not consider them a High School, since they dont compete for a state championship. If you openly recruit your players, I believe you lose the status as a High School in most peoples eyes.