Your words -

 

The thing is. Socialism, progressivism, utopianism, etc are not new concepts. They date back to Plato and beyond. And as far as I know, every empire, country, government (whatever you want to call it) has colapsed under the weight of utopianism.

My meaning was every empire that moved to the socialist, progressive, utopian direction eventually failed. While not utopian, neither was it a republic anymore. Not quite sure what you would call it.

 

I realize other forms of government have failed.

Precisely. I don't see how the constitution can be out-of-date. That doesn't go over with me at all. It protects our individual liberty and that is never outdated.

 

If no one's read it, read Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville. Remarkable that it still has so much relevance today.

 

While culture changes, human nature doesn't. IMO, these truths are universal:

 

1) Man is imperfect.

2) Man is self-serving.

3) Because of 1 & 2, it is impossible for man to create uptopia on Earth.

4) Man chasing utopia on Earth only leads to despotism.

5) The only thing that can keep man living in relative harmony with his community over long periods of time is belief in, and adherence to, a strong code of moral standards.

6) Absent a strong code of moral standards, no human society will survive for any length of time.

My meaning was every empire that moved to the socialist, progressive, utopian direction eventually failed. While not utopian, neither was it a republic anymore. Not quite sure what you would call it.

 

I realize other forms of government have failed.

 

Rome was a republic. But not a Constitutional Republic - like we are - or were.

 

Without the People's Constitution to control the government we will look a like Rome.

Rome was a republic. But not a Constitutional Republic - like we are - or were.

 

Without the People's Constitution to control the government we will look a like Rome.

In the end is was some form of one man rule. I believe they kept branches of government, but are the branches anything more than show if one man rules?

 

That's why I said I don't know what you would call it.

While culture changes, human nature doesn't. IMO, these truths are universal:

 

1) Man is imperfect.

2) Man is self-serving.

3) Because of 1 & 2, it is impossible for man to create uptopia on Earth.

4) Man chasing utopia on Earth only leads to despotism.

5) The only thing that can keep man living in relative harmony with his community over long periods of time is belief in, and adherence to, a strong code of moral standards.

6) Absent a strong code of moral standards, no human society will survive for any length of time.

 

Exactly.

 

From another thread, allow myself to quote ... myself...

 

I've always thought that the founders assumed a certain amount of civility that, sadly, doesn't exist today.

 

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams

 

By citing the above quote, I'm not trying to start the "Christian nation" debate, just pointing out that, whether through religion, morality, philosophy - whatever - I think there needs to be an underpinning of civility for us to have the freedoms we were meant to have.

Our leaders definitely do not abide by the Constitution to the full extent but it was happening long before Obama. Obama clearly wants to fundamentally change America but we are not living in a post constitutional america because of him.

Our leaders definitely do not abide by the Constitution to the full extent but it was happening long before Obama. Obama clearly wants to fundamentally change America but we are not living in a post constitutional america because of him.

 

True. It's been going on for at least 80 years. But it has accelerated quite a bit in the last 20 years.

True. It's been going on for at least 80 years. But it has accelerated quite a bit in the last 20 years.

It has always been going on ,since the Constitution was ratified .

nky_ harry You said that the founders had a certain amount of civility that sadly doesn't exist today . Yeah like the civility between Jefferson and John Adams and especially the civility that existed between Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr . Maybe dueling should be made legal .

It has always been going on ,since the Constitution was ratified .

 

More so in the 20th century.

nky_ harry You said that the founders had a certain amount of civility that sadly doesn't exist today . Yeah like the civility between Jefferson and John Adams and especially the civility that existed between Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr . Maybe dueling should be made legal .

 

Not saying things were perfect back then, but if you think our society today is more civil than it was 230 years ago ... well, I don't know what to say.

Not saying things were perfect back then, but if you think our society today is more civil than it was 230 years ago ... well, I don't know what to say.

then don't say anything

then don't say anything

 

I'll say what I want. I was just left speechless at your ignorance.

I may be many things but I am not Ignorant and at least I am civil

Who has?

 

Thomas Jefferson for one. In the beginning he hated it, wanting the Articles of Confederation to continue with minor changes.