The NKAC Division III problem is a Catch-22 for Beechwood and the other Division III schools in NKY.

 

Yes, to improve you do not want to be "locked into" 2 games against each team.

 

However, if that stipulation were lifted good luck filling out the schedule. You won't find many of the Division I or Division II teams willing to play Division III teams. They won't want to give up quality games against each other or down-state teams to win by 15 in a bad year and 30 in a good year.

 

So get ready to travel a lot to find quality games in which you can improve. Plus take a big hit money-wise at the gate.

 

Since the All-A expanded into a state-wide tourney a NKAC Division III has not won the 9th region All-A much less the 9th region. Is that because of the schedule? Or is it because with no classification in KY for the Sweet 16 it is hard to establish a sucessful program at a small Class A school?

Originally posted by Wildcat

Tigerswin,

 

Name 1 team in class A who "reigns powerfully over their region." Have you been to the Sweet 16 lately? This is absolutely a 100% inaccurate statement!

 

 

 

First of all I didn't say anthing about dominating the region, I said over larger counterparts, implying that there are plenty of small schools that regularily beat larger schools or a larger school in their region. Look at Mayfield, a favorite to win their region this year. Are they not a class A school? How about Paintsville and Rose Hill? It may not be the norm but non-classification has not prevented these teams and others from competing with bigger schools. St. Henry appears to have as good a shot as anyone at the 9th this year, heck, they beat Elder earlier this season. Perhaps you misinterpreted my statement.

 

 

 

I'm not going to argue with you on depth. Different people place different values on it. I don't think it hurts to have multiple quality players though.

 

All I meant by the false coating was that on paper it doesn't give an honest representation of the season. 15 wins are nice, but when 12 of those are in DIII it doesn't look so good when you get down into it. You're right, you can make the same case for football, although they've had some very quality wins in the past.

By the way, I never brought football into the equation. If you'd like I could bring up baseball. I'm fairly sure that's not classified either, but if you're familiar with Beechwood you'll know it hasn't been an issue.

 

 

I didn't mean to say definitively that the kids didn't want to play for this coach, I simply don't know if that's the case or not. The program has been improving but there has to be a reason that kids are still not coming out, would you agree? That was just speculation on my part, maybe misplaced. I do admire what the coach has done with tied hands more or less, but I don't know what it's going to take to get the kids that can play to play. Obviously if the program takes off and starts beating some big time teams, kids will come, but which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

If you guys think it's as simple as a lack of toughness, I'm going to have a hard time disproving you. But this is the same group that works year round for the football program.

 

 

 

I am a Beechwood supporter, so please don't take the things I say out of context as jabs at the program or the school. There's a lot of frustration on my part and I'm sure many others about the basketball program particularily. It's hard to watch all the pieces and never see them come together. As I said before, I have a great deal of respect for the kids that do play.

Baseball is an issue, so go ahead and bring it up. Tell us how BHS and other Div. III teams don't have to play each other member 2x and then continue to tell us why the athletic dept. at Beechwood won't support the coaches and basketball supporters push to get out of Div. III. Instead of disrespecting the program try supporting the effort instead of digging the coaches and the kids. You don't come off as a supporter of BHS, but more like a supporter of baseball and football. If you have a solution, offer it don't critize you know little about. The effort of these coaches and kids should be applauded, not constantly put down. IT IS GETTING OLD.

Originally posted by UmayBright*but

Baseball is an issue, so go ahead and bring it up. Tell us how BHS and other Div. III teams don't have to play each other member 2x and then continue to tell us why the athletic dept. at Beechwood won't support the coaches and basketball supporters push to get out of Div. III. Instead of disrespecting the program try supporting the effort instead of digging the coaches and the kids. You don't come off as a supporter of BHS, but more like a supporter of baseball and football. If you have a solution, offer it don't critize you know little about. The effort of these coaches and kids should be applauded, not constantly put down. IT IS GETTING OLD.

 

Do you really believe that there's just a prejudice against the basketball program around the school?

 

Did you read any of my posts? Did I ever say anything about the effort of the kids or coaches? The focus is clearly on what is not happening rather than what is. I've yet to see you offer anything that resembles helpful criticism. I apologize for not making everything sound good and well with Beechwood basketball.

 

If you want to talk baseball and athletic department support you have nothing.

 

I think everyone has agreed that NKAC Division III is a large handicap. Is there any need to keep harping on that?

Although I did not agree with most of what tigerswin has said in thread, I do not think he was disrespecting or criticizing the basketball coaches or the players.

 

I agree D-III is a handicap, not knocking the other schools in D-III, but if your going to get better you need to play more schools that are bigger and better, which are not in D-III, yes every once in a while you get a very good team like Silver Grove come around, but what happens to them in the districts? I don't have to mention regionals as most D-III schools, if not all are packed up for the season by the regionals.

 

This is the first I heard of Beechwood wanting to get out of D-III, the question is, do they want wins? or do they want to play tougher teams? If Beechwood was not in D-III last year would they have as many wins? No. But they would have been better prepared for the districts against bigger schools. I think it would be a good idea to go to D-II or as independent, But, if they go the latter it may upset the powers to be (NKAC)and it would be hard for Beechwood to get back in even at a D-III, let alone a D-II, look at Holy Cross, took them forever to get back in...

 

Beechwood has had this problem for years, with the basketball program doing good at years then falling back a lot. Back in the late 70's and early 80's coach Shipley had the Tigers playing very good competition, a lot of people around the region said if and when Beechwood got a new gym the players would follow and it would be a boost to the program.

 

17 years later Beechwood is still trying to get it together, one problem was coaching, up until now the last good head coach they had was Yeagle, when he stepped in for one year, and that was back in 1988 I think. Since then Beechwood made some boneheaded decisions on coaching letting a well respected coach from Ohio get away and not starting a grade school/feeder system....

 

Now they have a good coach, who cares about basketball and will do anything to win, I say make some noise about the D-III situation and chance things... Fact is Beechwood is a football school, some very good athletes go to school there, but for some reason they do not want to play basketball....

Not only do I think there is a prejudice about the BB program around the school, I know for a fact there is a prejudice about the basketball program around the school. The kids who play basketball are contantly ridiculed for their choice to play. THIS IS A FACT.

Maybe you need to Question your insight into the challenges of the Beechwood BB Program if you do not want to accept this. Everyone wants to play football because they do not have to worry about being cut and they have plenty of company standing around in practice and on the sidelines during a game, and Hey! just maybe they will get a ring(there is awhole lot of people running around Fort Mitchell with these rings, who fit this) for doing less than the few basketball players in the stands who blindly support the football guys efforts.

Maybe your intention was not to dig the Coaches or the kids but you cannot blame anyone in the program from carrying a big chip on their shoulder, because of the disrespect(that you are obviously unaware of) they receive from their peers(coaches and kids).

As far as baseball and the athletic department is concerned. you too seem to have a chip on your shoulder, To answer that chip, I have plenty. Starting with the fact that they do not have to play each Div. III team 2x. Which you obviously do not want to address.

But a public forum is not the place to discuss this. Open your eyes and maybe you will figure it out. Basketball, why bother.

As far as harping on Division III, you infer that people are reading your post sand misinterpreting them, if you, were reading the other post, you would see that the answer to your critizism for the basetball program is Div. III NKAC.

It is obvious you would much rather infer blame on other things and not hear the real reason. You don't want an answer you just want to ridicule, so stay in the stands and with the rest of the part time coaches and contiue to spread your negativity. Then things will just have to stay the same and the Basketball program will continue, with or without your support, but remember a couple things everytime you critize these coaches and kids, from the stands, ask yourself how you would feal if that kid was you or maybe that kid was yours.

I'll say it again the coachs and kids that play basketball at Beechwood have more guts than anyone else in that school.

One last thing Tim Couch broke his leg playing in the Nfl,not because he played 4+ years of High School Basketball.

First off, what the heck does Tim Couch have to do with this? and what does his broken leg have to do with this ?

I wasn't real sure on that either. Maybe that there isn't as much injury risk in basketball? I don't know.

 

 

UmayBright-

 

I never once said that Division III wasn't an issue. I only said that there may be other things at work. If getting out of Division III is the panacea for Beechwood basketball, then so be it. It's a shame that more can't be done and I truly feel for everyone involved in the basketball program because to a large extent they are helpless in this. I think our disagreement is as simple as me believing that there are other problems and you believing that is the only issue. I hope we can see who's right, because I'd love to see Beechwood get out of the Division III format altogether. If the other schools want to continue it, guaranteeing themselves 14 (or 12 without Beechwood) then I don't think anyone would object. From what I understand, and you may know better, but for the last two years the coaching staff has been making an effort to move up to Div. II. I was under the impression that it would require the girls' consent and at this point the girls' program was not looking for the increased competition and therefore opted to remain in Division III. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

As for the negativity, I'm not going to deny that it exists from the student body, maybe even the community. I went to Beechwood, I know how the basketball players were treated. It's not great, but I don't know how much that should affect things. I'm not in a good enough position to comment on the community as a whole.

If you believe there is a prejudice coming from the athletic department I can't tell you you're wrong, but I sure hope you aren't right. I know several of the people involved I believe they'd do everything in their power to act fairly and impartially, whether it be working with the coaches to move from Div. III or anything else. They are busy people though.

Tigerswin,

 

Your words were "reign powerfully over their larger counterparts"- this sounds like a perennial Sweet 16 participant. When is the last time Mayfield, Rose Hill( we all know the O.J. Mayo story), Painstsville, St. Henry(who had a very good year last year and is very good this year) went to the Sweet 16?

 

In addition, Mayfield's best player is their tailback and was counting on playing in a basketball game the night after they beat Beechwood. One of Beechwood's best players who plays football is Jeff Wera and he is not playing- I think he played some as a freshman. I thought the Menetrey kid was a good player who saw some time last year for the Varsity. I have not seen his name in the box score either- so I assume he is not playing. Not too many schools can suffer the loss of two very good athletes to their basketball program and maintain or improve their level of play. Rose Hill and St. Henry(who is AA size by the way) don't have football to worry about and I'm sure the best basketball players are playing at Paintsville(who also hasn't been to the Sweet 16 in recent years either).

 

Those 15+ wins may have come at the expense of the smaller schools, but how many wins were they getting a few years ago? No one can expect Beechwood to be a regional contender in just a few years; none of the other top notch programs in NKY became solid programs overnight. As I said earlier, it takes time- to learn the system & the coach, & talent- which appears they are not even getting all of their own best players(including the 2 football players that have been mentioned in other posts that are playing this year that have not played for two years prior).

 

Why is that? Is it the other coaches? Wasn't Coach Yeagle a 3 sport athlete- I doubt it would be him. I don't know the others-what are they like? Is it lack of support from the athletic department- I know the only sport recognised in their gym is the football team-what a joke-the football team should be admired- but so should all the sports- Beechwood has a successful history in all their sports- even Basketball- I am told in the 70's they were better than football. Is it the administration allowing the supposed ridicule of basketball players to go on-this I have no personal info on? Is it the coach? I don't know him either?

Is it a combination?

 

Whatever it is- it is ridiculous that the administration, the athletic department, the community, and the student body allow the program to continue this way. The Beechwood community should support ALL of Beechwood and strive to reach their potential in all sports- not just football because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy about themselves. It is obvious it will be harder to be as successfull in the other sports because they are not classified-but hard work and perseverance are good traits to learn that would benefit the entire school

Wildcat-

 

It probably wasn't the best way to say what I meant if that's the way you took it. All that I was trying to say was that there are a lot of rivalries, series, etc. that the smaller school dominates so clearly size can be overcome. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

I think we both agree that the success of the football team handicaps the basketball program. I can't ever see Beechwood without a football team like St. Henry and Rose Hill, but if the football program weren't as successful I would bet that more kids would go out for basketball.

 

I don't have the answer to most of your questions and I don't know that anyone does. I don't believe that kids are discouraged from playing basketball by other coaches; maybe by students but I think the true players aren't going to let this affect them to the point of not even playing. I really don't think it's anything other than a general mindset of basketball not being important. I don't know how to change it, obviously I offended some people by tossing out several ideas about what the problem might be.

 

I agree that it's ridiculous for anyone involved to not do everything possible to foster a winning program. In a lot of ways a basketball team just making it to the region would do a lot more for the school than even a football team making it to the regional final or state semi's.

Tigerswin,

 

I truly think that you have learned that their are people out there that do support Beechwood basketball and not to beat a dead horse but, could you point out in your posts where you suggested the possible problems. That is besides the coach and the weak(I suppose you mean strenght) players.

I couldn't find them. Thank-you

I don't think a jump into Division II would be the way to go right now for Beechwood. Look at the schedules for St. Henry, Newcath, and Holy Cross and find win-able games for Beechwood. There aren't many if any. A couple of 3-20 seasons could really mean problems. Going independant might be a killer too. The best scenario would be to become a dominant team in Division III and then make a move. Of course that isn't easy either.

UmayBright*but, clean out you mailbox pease, it's full and I can't send you anything...

 

I know Beechwood has done very well the past two years against D-III teams, now this year will show what they really have, they lost a lot of good players and height, but have a lot of good players coming up. If they can go through D-III with no more than 2 losses, and not have many close games agaisnt teams like Villa, Dayton ect, and play very well against D-II, III team like they did against Dixie then maybe a move MAY be the best.

 

Only the coaches and parents know what they have coming up. A few years back Beechwood lost a couple of players to CCH, I am sure besides the coaching situation at the time, that the schedule had something to do with it. If you ahve a real good player what college is going to look at a kid who plays mostly D-III HS teams? hardly anyone, so that player has a choice, stay at Beechwood or bolt to CCH or Dixie and get better competition and a better scholarship offer. I say if the coaches mentioned a move out of D-III, go with it. But I will hold of on my opinion until after the season.

UmayBright-

 

I never believed that there was no one that cared about Beechwood basketball. If I didn't care myself I would be wasting my time discussing something I have no concern for; but that is beside the point.

 

Do you mean problems I see with the program overall or with this year's team specifically? You named one of each but I guess I can give you both.

 

I've stated that problems I see with the program are a lack of participation from qualified students, whether it is a matter of kids not wanting to play under the current regime or not having a program that the kids want to be a part of- again I'm just speculating that these might be possible causes. Also the Division III issue is a general problem with the program although I think we've discussed that enough. The lack of respect/support from the school and community has been brought up as a general problem as well. I hate to say it but the best way to earn respect or support is to do something worthy of it. Ideally everyone affiliated with Beechwood would support everyone else affiliated with Beechwood just because of the common bond, but that's not the way it is at any school.

 

If you meant problems with this year's team, I mentioned some of those as well. You don't seem to think that the lack of depth or experience is an issue, so we don't have to count those. I also brought up size, both height and strength, which could allow a team to dominate the boards and the post. I also thought that a weak schedule (I know it's not by choice) would give an inaccurate picture of how the season went.

One reason I see for the lack of so called support is simple, the schedule, look at when the football team plays a home game with Ludlow or Dayton, nad next season with Bracken Co., everyone knows it will not be a good game and that the school they are playing is not a top notched team... Plus the season has more games and the support is spread out, watering down the turn out...

 

One way to get more students behind the basketball team is let the Beechwood students in for free, some other schools let their students in the games for free during a home basketball game. Why not have a grade school night? or nights, SELL the team and the program, give stuff away on these nights, make the kids want to come back, not only for the game, but sell it as an event... There are plenty of ideas out there for any school, EVERY kid in every sport deserves support, but sometimes you have to bend over backwards to get that support...

 

I've said this before, Beechwood has last very good basketball players to CCH and Dixie in the past, one reason was the coaching, up until now the last good coach was Yeagle in 1988-89. The other reason is the schedule, look at it now I see where Beechwood is trying to play bigger and better teams. Their freshman team plays mostly D-I and D-II schools and do very well, so something is happening between grades 9 and 10.....

 

I can see where a top football or baseball player who MAY get a scholarship would not want to take a chance to play basketball, or any other sport and get injured.. too much at stake. But I am sure there are enough athletes in that school to have a competitive team without those who choose not to come out..