February 22, 201016 yr Author I am so confused! What the heck am I supposed to do with all this info? Please ask any questions that you deem important. I tried to break it down in different posts as he changed points.
February 22, 201016 yr Please ask any questions that you deem important. I tried to break it down in different posts as he changed points. Well, I've read a lot of the posts, especially those early in this thread. But when I read many of them, and then read what you post that's NOT scripture, I think I disagree on many points. I'm not quite ready to committ myself to challenging you, because I'm trying to re-read them again. But...I'm trying to figure out exactly what the overall point of the WHOLE thread is so that I can be focused on the right things.
February 22, 201016 yr Author Well, I've read a lot of the posts, especially those early in this thread. But when I read many of them, and then read what you post that's NOT scripture, I think I disagree on many points. I'm not quite ready to committ myself to challenging you, because I'm trying to re-read them again. But...I'm trying to figure out exactly what the overall point of the WHOLE thread is so that I can be focused on the right things. Please call me on anything you think I was incorrect on. Point of the whole thread was that there are many answers in here for acemonia and UKMust from the Christian accountablity thread. Noticably, where Paul tells us the purpose of the Law in the OT. To know what sin is.
February 22, 201016 yr Please call me on anything you think I was incorrect on. Point of the whole thread was that there are many answers in here for acemonia and UKMust from the Christian accountablity thread. Noticably, where Paul tells us the purpose of the Law in the OT. To know what sin is. I'm not saying you're incorrect per se. But, I'm simply not sure that this proves a point (at this point). I'm not trying to argue, just understand what each post means.
February 22, 201016 yr I am so confused! What the heck am I supposed to do with all this info?You're not allowed to do anything with it until you've finished being instructed, and thus, delivered from the darkness of your ignorance. Talking, questioning and discussing will not be tolerated! Now go sit in the corner.
February 22, 201016 yr Romans 2 Paul strikes the judgement of people by other people and then gives us an out from the judgement of God that is based on truth. Romans 2 God's Righteous Judgment 1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism. This is one that strikes me. Often, I've been chastised for my view that it is not our place to judge others based in part on this scripture. But, right here..this is absolutely stating that judgment is reserved for God. That judging others is bound to land you up against God in an unfavorable light. Paul tells us that those of us who pass judgment are guilty as well of the same things. How does this reconcile with the thought that it is our Christian duty to pass judgment on others?
February 22, 201016 yr Paul gives us a list of things that God indicates is wicked. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Here, I see the list of wicked deeds. But do we not fall in the pit of wickedness if we purport ourselves to be better Christians than others? Wouldn't that be arrogant and boastful? Right there it says "they invent ways of doing evil". Couldn't that invention for some be that they convince themselves and others that they know God's will and are qualified to tell others the errors of their ways?
February 22, 201016 yr A hard Scripture to digest. Romans 9 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Does this not say that WE cannot save anyone? Doesn't this say that even if we condemn someone for their actions, mercy is only God's to give? WE can't assure anyone of God's mercy even if we convince them to believe what we think they should or behave the way we think they should. And, it also, puts us back in the position of facing God's wrath ourselves for presuming to pass judgment on another. (relating back the previous passage)
February 22, 201016 yr Did you know that you have been grafted? Wait a minute, I am not even sure I know what grafted is? Romans 11 Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! Particularly interested in what my Catholic brothers and sisters read here since it indicates that we are being grafted onto the nation of Israel and the early believers of the OT instead of Catholicism being the true church. I think this also has some political meaning as an explanation of why we try and remain tied and protect the nation of Israel. EVEN THOUGH, the present day nation of Israel is not the same as the OT nation of Israel. I'm not sure I understand your question of Catholics.
February 22, 201016 yr A key Scripture from Romans to my other thread's topic that lead to this thread. When should you see changes in a Christian's life? Romans 14 The Weak and the Strong 1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.... 9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. This is about as clear as it gets on the matter of us judging each other. I can't for the life of me figure out where we are commanded to judge each other. Righteousness can be preserved without judgment of others. and further, in V22, we are commanded to keep our beliefs between ourselves and God.
February 23, 201016 yr We are told to warn each otrher of their Sins, and we need to do this without causing judgement. We can do this by pointing out the scripture verse that would fit the cause. If I judge someone and someone calls me out for it, then are they judging me too, Two wrongs make a right?
February 23, 201016 yr Author You're not allowed to do anything with it until you've finished being instructed, and thus, delivered from the darkness of your ignorance. Talking, questioning and discussing will not be tolerated! Now go sit in the corner. :confused::confused: Not sure where this comes from as in the thread and in a PM, I have encourage RM to ask questions and further the discussion.
February 23, 201016 yr Author This is one that strikes me. Often, I've been chastised for my view that it is not our place to judge others based in part on this scripture. But, right here..this is absolutely stating that judgment is reserved for God. That judging others is bound to land you up against God in an unfavorable light. Paul tells us that those of us who pass judgment are guilty as well of the same things. How does this reconcile with the thought that it is our Christian duty to pass judgment on others? I totally agree that this one is one that set me back as it study. I wonder if there is a difference between judging and teaching as I know it says that Scripture is good for teaching and rebuking. To me, if I cannot use Scripture as the teaching mode, I think it is me judging. If I show you a Scripture that says, you shouldn't wear your hair in a ponytail (using an outlandish example here so to not get sidetracked) than I would see that as teaching rather than judging.
February 23, 201016 yr Author I'm not sure I understand your question of Catholics. This indicates that the Catholic Church has been grafted onto the nation of Israel from the OT instead of them being their own wild olive shoot. All Christians (to me that is Catholics and Protestants) it seems are grafted onto the nation of Israel wild olive shoot.
February 23, 201016 yr Author Does this not say that WE cannot save anyone? Doesn't this say that even if we condemn someone for their actions, mercy is only God's to give? WE can't assure anyone of God's mercy even if we convince them to believe what we think they should or behave the way we think they should. And, it also, puts us back in the position of facing God's wrath ourselves for presuming to pass judgment on another. (relating back the previous passage) Absolutely. We can teach Scripture but it is still God's call to grant mercy or not to grant mercy. He didn't have to send His Son, but chose to. It goes back to faith in what God tells us in Scripture.
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