One and one FT situation. Defensive player doesn't take inside position on FT line so offensive player takes the inside spot. Referee throws ball to FT shooter. Defensive team coach yells at his player that she should be on the inside position. As shot is being released defensive player grabs offensive player and pulls her into upper lane position while stepping in front of offensive player to take the inside spot. Free throw is released as whistle is blown. FT good. Referee calls double lane violation and goes to alternate arrow, awarding ball to defensive team, and negating made FT and second of the bonus. Oh yeah, this is with 23 seconds to play in the game with the FT shooting team down two points. Our coach is furious at the call arguing that the ball should have never been given to the shooter while the players were out of order on the lane, then that it definately shouldn't have been a double violation with the one girl physically moving our player. Anyone seen anything like this, and isn't it the referee's job before giving the shooter the ball to make sure everyone is lined up properly? Is this a correctable error instead of a double violation? Just wondering b.c we lost by two points so this was huge.

It is not a correctable error. It is a double simultaneous violation and the correct call was made.

Absolutely. It is a double simultaneous violation --

Even if one of the players PHYSICALLY moves the other one by pulling on her jersey? Wouldn't this be a foul?

Violation #1: The marked lane space closest to the basket must be occupied by a defensive player. Just because a defensive player does not take that space does not mean an offensive player may do so, though many people seem to have an old-school "but it's an open spot" view of this. There was also a NFHS rule revision for 2008-09 stating that the marked lane spaces closest to the end line are to remain vacant, moving players up a space in order to reduce the amount of "rough play" potential. I'm not sure if this was true in the situation you described, but I don't think it would change anything. Also, as usual, no more than two players on offense are allowed to be in the lane spots, though I've also seen this overlooked.

 

Violation #2: No player may step out of the marked lane area early (after the free-throw shooter is preparing to shoot).

 

At the officials' discretion, a double violation results in a possession as called. I guess it's possible, but unlikely, that an intentional foul could have resulted. As strange as it may seem, it appears the correct call was made according to the rules.

One and one FT situation. Defensive player doesn't take inside position on FT line so offensive player takes the inside spot. Referee throws ball to FT shooter. Defensive team coach yells at his player that she should be on the inside position. As shot is being released defensive player grabs offensive player and pulls her into upper lane position while stepping in front of offensive player to take the inside spot. Free throw is released as whistle is blown. FT good. Referee calls double lane violation and goes to alternate arrow, awarding ball to defensive team, and negating made FT and second of the bonus. Oh yeah, this is with 23 seconds to play in the game with the FT shooting team down two points. Our coach is furious at the call arguing that the ball should have never been given to the shooter while the players were out of order on the lane, then that it definately shouldn't have been a double violation with the one girl physically moving our player. Anyone seen anything like this, and isn't it the referee's job before giving the shooter the ball to make sure everyone is lined up properly? Is this a correctable error instead of a double violation? Just wondering b.c we lost by two points so this was huge.

 

First of all, the official should have NEVER let this happen. Its the first thing the administering official checks.

 

By the way your play is described, the FT would count , I'd call a foul on the player grabbing the other player, clear the lanes, shoot the second FT and then administer foul shots or have the shooting team take the ball out of bounds. No way this is a double violation. You can't say the "pulled" player left her spot. She moved because she was fouled.

First of all, the official should have NEVER let this happen. Its the first thing the administering official checks.

 

By the way your play is described, the FT would count , I'd call a foul on the player grabbing the other player, clear the lanes, shoot the second FT and then administer foul shots or have the shooting team take the ball out of bounds. No way this is a double violation. You can't say the "pulled" player left her spot. She moved because she was fouled.

 

I agree that the administering official should have stopped it. However, it was not stopped, leaving questions.

 

The way the "play is described" does not specify if the offensive player did not adhere to the new NFHS (of which KHSAA is a member) revision for 2008-09 with the free throw lane spots nearest the endline vacant, something current coaches, players (and possibly even officials) need to be more cognizant of. If anything, it sounds like she took the now-prohibited spot. You're right, the "pulled" player's violation had nothing to do with her leaving her spot, though it's obvious for the other player.

 

Unfortunate for the shooting team, but too many question marks for the "no way this is a double violation" statement, so with the known info, I'd still have to side with the official at the game.

Edited December 29, 200817 yr by CAL4ALL
Word "new" moved to appropriate spot.

I agree that the administering official should have stopped it. However, it was not stopped, leaving questions.

 

The way the "play is described" does not specify if the offensive player did not adhere to the NFHS (of which KHSAA is a member) revision for 2008-09 with the new free throw lane spots nearest the endline vacant, something current coaches, players (and possibly even officials) need to be more cognizant of. If anything, it sounds like she took the now-prohibited spot. You're right, the "pulled" player's violation had nothing to do with her leaving her spot, though it's obvious for the other player.

 

Unfortunate for the shooting team, but too many question marks for the "no way this is a double violation" statement, so with the known info, I'd still have to side with the official at the game.

 

Lets assume for the sake of argument that the player did not line up in the box closest to the endline and did indeed line up in the lowest box allowed under the new rules.

 

We now have A1 and B1 lined up incorrectly. If we both see in our heads the play as desribed as A1 (not in the correct slot) saying "hey, I'm supposed to be there" and pulls B1 out of the slot.

 

Now what do you have?

Lets assume for the sake of argument that the player did not line up in the box closest to the endline and did indeed line up in the lowest box allowed under the new rules.

 

We now have A1 and B1 lined up incorrectly. If we both see in our heads the play as desribed as A1 (not in the correct slot) saying "hey, I'm supposed to be there" and pulls B1 out of the slot.

 

Now what do you have?

 

I could then see a foul on the defensive player doing the pulling.

 

However, I think we are missing specific details to make a clear decision. Yes, the official missed the original check. Even so, an offensive player should also know not to take the position closest to the basket instead of leaving it up to the official to change.

It is not a correctable error. It is a double simultaneous violation and the correct call was made.

 

Explain to me why it not a correctable error? It is the REF'S job to make sure the players are lined up correctly before he or she releases the ball to the free throw shooter. Therefore, the ref can blow the whistle, correct the mistake by telling the players to line up in their correct positions and to re-shoot the free throw.

Tiger1 that is what we wanted to happen, or the foul to be called. The offensive player was smiling like a cheshire cat so she knew she had been able to get the inside spot that she wasn't supposed to be in. The other team's coaches started screaming and the defensive girl was jolted out of la-la land and immediately grabbed the other girl and pulled her to change spots. Weirdest situation that I've seen in a long time and the referee was so bull headed it was obvious that he was embarassed that he missed the girls lining up wrong. Just a really bad thing to happen with less than a minute to go in a two point game, and the offensive team ends up without the FT's or the ball. I felt the referee really affected the outcome of this game and that should never happen. But it was two poor teams so they usually get poorer refs.

Explain to me why it not a correctable error? It is the REF'S job to make sure the players are lined up correctly before he or she releases the ball to the free throw shooter. Therefore, the ref can blow the whistle, correct the mistake by telling the players to line up in their correct positions and to re-shoot the free throw.

 

Absolutely not correct. As a courstesy the officials normally try to make sure players are lined up properly. It is NOT the officials job to COACH. If the DEFENSIVE player does NOT occupy the bottom spot................it IS a violation on the defensive team. If the shot is missed.....it will be awarded again. When the OFFENSIVE player occupies the spot it is a viloation on the offensive team. This makes it a double violation. The DEFENSE MUST and the OFFENSE CANNOT. Nothing else really matters. Nothing to correct. This is NOT my opinion---------it is the RULE. Too bad this happened in such a close game.

Although officials do try to make sure players line up properly, I would agree with KSCTU's statement concerning the rule. It is ultimately the player's responsibility to make sure he/she is in the right position.

Explain to me why it not a correctable error? It is the REF'S job to make sure the players are lined up correctly before he or she releases the ball to the free throw shooter. Therefore, the ref can blow the whistle, correct the mistake by telling the players to line up in their correct positions and to re-shoot the free throw.

 

Because the rule book says it is not a correctable error.

Absolutely not correct. As a courstesy the officials normally try to make sure players are lined up properly. It is NOT the officials job to COACH. If the DEFENSIVE player does NOT occupy the bottom spot................it IS a violation on the defensive team. If the shot is missed.....it will be awarded again. When the OFFENSIVE player occupies the spot it is a viloation on the offensive team. This makes it a double violation. The DEFENSE MUST and the OFFENSE CANNOT. Nothing else really matters. Nothing to correct. This is NOT my opinion---------it is the RULE. Too bad this happened in such a close game.

 

All you say is true but how do you do handle A1 grabbing B1 and moving them?