Surveying requires a sound understanding of geometry and trigonometry and as a former supervisor of many surveyors, I can assure you that none of them were Ivy League graduates. In fact, none of them graduated from any college, although there are certainly many people engaged in surveying who do have college degrees.

 

The fact is, many young people who become surveyor require some remedial on the job trigonometry training because few of them receive an adequate math education in high school.

 

It saddens me to see foreign students outnumbering American students in our own colleges in science, math, and computer science on an increasing number of campuses.

 

 

ON the bolded, I have no problem with that. It is a specialized training for a specialized field.

 

Should HS's be in the business of training students for EVERY POSSIBLE job out there?

 

We don't do anything in electricity or plumbing and if a child goes into those fields, those in that field has to teach them. Why should the field of surveying expect them to come out of HS completely prepared for the field of surveying if they aren't for plumbing or electricity?

 

Although for the record, the way the guys wear their pants these days, they are ready for a career in plumbing.

 

On the last paragraph, did you ever think it is simply because they have no good colleges in their country for math and science. So, they are ALL coming over here for it.

I agree with your first paragraph immensely.

 

But should EVERY STUDENT be REQUIRED to learn that?

 

What is your definition of a good English teacher? I would counter that there is not since the reading level of students are a growing problem.

Yes, every student who is capable of learning algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and statistics should be taught those subjects because high school teachers are in no position to accurately predict which students will and which students will not need those skills. Many great inventors and scientists have shocked their former teachers with their success. Do you want to be the person who decided that the next Edison or Einstein was not smart enough to master trigonometry?

 

As for English teachers, I can only speak from personal experience. I attended eastern Kentucky schools for most of my early life and had excellent English teachers at every level. My college entrance scores and CLEP tests exempted me from basic college English requirements. Although I had a few good science teachers, I was not even close to testing out of any of those subjects in college.

 

My children attended some of the same schools that I attended. My eldest son scored a perfect 800 on the SAT verbal both times that he took the test. His math scores were good, but much lower. I believe that all of my children, my wife, and I graduated from Kentucky schools with the reading and writing skills to succeed.

 

As for math and science, my background was adequate but not what I would describe as strong and I majored in engineering. Many graduates of nearby high schools who chose engineering as a career required remedial math classes (Algebra II, Pre-Calculus, Trigonometry) before taking on the math classes required for engineering students.

 

I know that there are high schools in Kentucky that do a much better job teaching math and science than my alma mater did, but overall the quality of math and science education in Kentucky lags well behind other areas

Yes, every student who is capable of learning algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and statistics should be taught those subjects because high school teachers are in no position to accurately predict which students will and which students will not need those skills. Many great inventors and scientists have shocked their former teachers with their success. Do you want to be the person who decided that the next Edison or Einstein was not smart enough to master trigonometry?

 

 

I cannot accurately predict what students will be automechanics, should we teach those skills, too?

 

I am not trying to be flippant here, but trying to make a deep point.

 

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF HIGH SCHOOL?

 

Maybe it has changed from 20 years ago? Is it to prepare for college, the workplace, the fields like you mentioned that need trig? Is it really the job of a HS to teach trig? Or should that be something you learn in college or in the field you are working in.

 

Presently, hundreds upon hundreds of things are being dumped on schools that they have to get in. And I wonder if we are losing the very basics and things that are necessary for life on a daily basis for those things that are nice but not necessary.

 

It would be like saying I am going to feed my kid pheasant and duck and lobster and filet mignon, all these nice and wonderful things and as a result, they are full and have no room for green beans and carrots and broccoli. Things that may not taste as good as a filet mignon but have vital vitamins and minerals that they need.

On the comment on continuing education.

 

I taught Computers for awhile. The whole Microsoft Office programs and the like.

Does anyone want to guess how much of that I learned in my college education in the 80's????? Anyone? Anyone?

 

That is correct. ZILCH.

 

ON MY TIME WITH NO COMPENSATION, I had to learn about Powerpoint, Word, Excel, Access. I had to learn the ins and outs of all these programs like a business person uses them so that I could teach it.

 

Now before someone says this is complaining, it is not. I chose to teach that because I knew how much these kids needed to learn this stuff for the real world. Even though what I was teaching them would be outdated in 5 years or less, it would give them a foundation to build on.

 

Rather, it is a statement of fact of what we do.

 

Unfortunately, my education of Accounting in the written journals, shorthand and typing from college days is not much use for me.

It's a statement of fact of what a lot of people do. Not just teachers. Do I think teachers are overpaid? No. But I have never heard a bigger collection of professionals get so defensive when their salaries are questioned. My question is -- when did someone turn off the money fountain that pays teachers? I mean, you guys were sold a bill of goods. Graduate high school, go to college, get a degree, go back for a masters, and then not get compensated for all the extras you had to do. At what point in history did this happen? I mean, surely you had to know that the job would require SOME extra work that you wouldn't get paid for. You had to know there would be some times where you would have to grade papers on your own time.

 

Teachers seem bent on comparing the salaries of essential occupations. I'll bet a garbage man would love to trade jobs with you. Having to work outside no matter the weather on dispose of your garbage. I'll bet they would love to trade jobs with you. Granted, teachers chose their path. Do they have a draft for garbage men? I mean, garbage collection is a vital part of our society. If you don't think so, don't put yours at the street for a month or two.

 

The guy at the water treatment plant who purifies your water. Now there's someone who has had to learn some things on his extra time for his job. I don't think they get summers off. I'm sure they work some weekends and maybe even get called in when things aren't running smooth. Do teachers get called into work at night if half the class fails a test? If you don't think the guy at the water treatment plant is an essential person, don't flush your toilet for a week then do your laundry in it.

 

Police officers, highway workers, ambulance drivers and EMTs, social worker, day care worker, truck drivers, postal employees. ALL are essential occupations. SOME require additional schooling or education for their jobs.

NONE get their summers and weekends off. ALL work more than 200 days a year. NONE have the state's most powerful union in their corner. And to my knowledge, NONE have threads on here claiming they are underpaid compared to other jobs.

 

A University of Arkansas study showed that teachers are paid about 11% better per hour than other professional and technical specialty workers - ranging from clergy to physicians.

 

Mechanical engineers earn 6% less an hour than public school teachers. They earn more per year, however, because the teachers have to work far fewer days and get summers off.

 

I won't say teachers are overpaid but they sure as heckfire aren't underpaid. If you are a teacher and think you are underpaid, I have a bin full of garbage that needs to be picked up every Tuesday. Or you can drive a truck cross country, invest a lot of your money and time into the truck, work without benefits, and not see your family as much. While public school teachers help train many of the jobs of tomorrow, I don't remember taking a truck driving class in high school. But I do know how your books and classroom furniture got to your room. I also know how the materials arrived that built your school. And I know how the food that feeds the students arrived at your school. Shall we compare jobs and benefits now?

ON the bolded, I have no problem with that. It is a specialized training for a specialized field.

 

Should HS's be in the business of training students for EVERY POSSIBLE job out there?

 

We don't do anything in electricity or plumbing and if a child goes into those fields, those in that field has to teach them. Why should the field of surveying expect them to come out of HS completely prepared for the field of surveying if they aren't for plumbing or electricity?

 

Although for the record, the way the guys wear their pants these days, they are ready for a career in plumbing.

 

On the last paragraph, did you ever think it is simply because they have no good colleges in their country for math and science. So, they are ALL coming over here for it.

Employers should not need to teach young adults basic math skills and for a person of average or above average intelligence, trig, statistics, algebra, and geometry are what I consider basic math skills.

 

For example, if graduates have a good understanding of what sine, cosine, tangent, and the Pythagorean Theorem are and can solve for missing angles and lengths of triangles, they are ready for an entry level surveying job. These are not complicated concepts and their usefulness is not limited to surveying.

 

The foreign students who crowd into our computer science, math, and physics departments are here to fill a void created by the declining numbers of American students enrolling in those classes. When the US loses its lead in technology, everybody's salary will suffer and our lead has been shrinking for decades.

I cannot accurately predict what students will be automechanics, should we teach those skills, too?

 

I am not trying to be flippant here, but trying to make a deep point.

 

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF HIGH SCHOOL?

 

Maybe it has changed from 20 years ago? Is it to prepare for college, the workplace, the fields like you mentioned that need trig? Is it really the job of a HS to teach trig? Or should that be something you learn in college or in the field you are working in.

 

Presently, hundreds upon hundreds of things are being dumped on schools that they have to get in. And I wonder if we are losing the very basics and things that are necessary for life on a daily basis for those things that are nice but not necessary.

 

It would be like saying I am going to feed my kid pheasant and duck and lobster and filet mignon, all these nice and wonderful things and as a result, they are full and have no room for green beans and carrots and broccoli. Things that may not taste as good as a filet mignon but have vital vitamins and minerals that they need.

Math and science skills are not vocational skills. There is absolutely no excuse for American high schools to be graduating students who believe that basic algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and statistics are "higher mathematics" that they will never again need.

 

If public high schools cannot teach these subjects to most students in 12 years, then we should begin allowing students to graduate when they can master basic reading, writing, and fractions, which should be doable in eight years or less.

 

The goal of high schools should be to maintain as many options as possible for graduating seniors. Whether they choose to pursue an engineering career, become a chef, or drive a truck, a graduating student should not be hamstrung by an inferior math and science education that will close doors on some of the more lucrative options.