Well I don't know if we would ever have a new association here in KY, and I don't want this to be a debate over private and public schools (which I know that is why some would want a new association - but that is not my intention on this thread)

 

I do think that it would be different to see a new association develop. I would want to see it consist of alot of schools (both public and private) that wanted to play sports for the sake of playing sports. Too many times I hear and read about teams, coaches, and politics getting in the way of kids just wanting to play a game.

 

I know that this may be a different topic, but if a kid wanted to go and play for a team that was only 5 miles from his home and he lived in another district that made him play for a team 15 miles from home, why should he be punished? Shouldn't it be the kid's choice on who they want to play for and with? Shouldn't they be able to choose what kind of coach they would want to play for? I hear about these situations, and we look at them as being unfair, but there are alot of schools in this state that do alot of unfair things. Why not make the playing level fair for everyone and have "rules" that are fair for the student athletes?

Ram,

 

I'm not sure this is true at all. For example, the state association in Maryland is called the Maryland Public Secondary Schools Athletic Association. No private schools are members. They maintain a list of non-member schools that are approved for member schools to play. DeMatha H.S. is on that list along with many others. Public schools can elect to play DeMatha if they so choose. DeMatha played St. X, Ohio, on September 2, 2007 without being a member of a state association. There is just an extra form to fill out to schedule an out of state opponent who is not a member of their state association.

 

By the way, the New York organization is called the New York State Public High School Athletic Association, Inc. They have a Friend & Neighbor list of approved schools (I'm guessing including private and Canadian schools). There's no reason KY couldn't do something similar.

 

The National Federation of State High School Associations who approved the state associations has a procedure for other associations to be approved. Those that are not the official association for their state are called Affiliate Associations (ie. Iowa Girls HS Athletic Union).

 

I'd prefer working with KHSAA, but there are several other options for those who feel like it's necessary.

 

There is a huge difference in Maryland (and Delaware and a few others). Those organizations are entities and departments within their State Departments of Education. That's why they are basically public only, because that's all their department truly regulates. Thus, the necessity to have other associations within the state. New York has several within the state, Mississipppi has a totally separate private school association (but before people jump up and down, they basically always have had separate), and Texas has four associations. The NFHS only has one member per state, but the others can come along to rules meetings, etc. So it truly is a mixed bag of options throughout the country. In the Northeast, athletics is only a small piece of the state office puzzle. If you look at their web sites, most of them are actually Principals Associations, so athletics is just a small function. But a majority throughout the country are still one association, public and private, along with the natural in-fighting that comes from different missions, compositions and purposes of all of those schools.

Thanks for the info., Kissinger. According to the KHSAA Handbook, "The general control is lodged with a Board of Directors, generally referred to as the Board of Control, fourteen of which are elected by the member schools, and an additional four members appointed by the Kentucky Board of Education. The Association is operated

under the direction of the Kentucky Board of Education and the Commissioner of Education." http://www.khsaa.org/handbook/preface.pdf see Historical Perspective.

 

I'm not clear on the distinction between being operated under the direction of the Board of Education and being a department for our purposes in this discussion. How would this impact forming a second organization in KY? I couldn't find anything to prevent such action.

 

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I could not find reference to any association claiming DeMatha as a member. There is no NFHS Affiliate Association operating in Maryland, according to the NFHS website. Surely, any second association in KY that obtains Affiliate Association status would have the opportunity to play teams from out of state.

 

If enough schools elected to join this new association, I would anticipate the National Federation would make the new group the state association, replacing the KHSAA in that capacity.

 

FBF015 - My reading of the rules indicates it's clearly possible to form a new organization. The real sticking point to me will be play between members of this new organization and KHSAA schools. Surely, KHSAA will block play between the groups in order to weaken the new group. You will need enough members to have competitive schedules for your schools without help from KHSAA. In order to garner this kind of support, I think you will need to be much more specific about what your goals are. Remember, you can legislate intent. What rules/procedures would you have to make this new organization better? Why can't you push for those rules within the structure of KHSAA?

Thanks for your input Terp.

 

I think that within a new association, coaches could voice thier opinion more and have more influence on rules and procedures that could occur.

 

For example, the dead period. I know that next year we are suppose to have this new dead period where football is not allowed for the entire month of June, but I do believe other sports can be going on. (correct me if I am wrong on that, but I think that is correct) Some coaches like this new idea, some do not. I do approve of it, but I have heard some that would rather have a true Dead period where all sports are dead for the entire month. Through a new association this could happen. Now before anyone starts telling me football is more demanding and they need that time for basketball / baseball / etc.... let me say this - Kids need time to be Kids

 

Trying to stay on track with goals here - I would want this association to acquire this rule. All sports can only last for a number of months or days, one season during the school year. In the past, we hear about fall baseball / summer basketball / fall and spring soccer / spring football (although I like sring football). I really think that if we are to have true athletes in our high schools, then they should be allow to play more than one sport without being penalized because of conflicting schedules or even coaches daring them to try out for another sport because of some other demand for their sport.

 

Here is an example of what could happen with a school year athletic schedule:

 

Months of: August, September, October, November = Football / Volley Ball / Cross Country

 

Months of: 1/2 November, December, January, February, March = Basketball / Wrestling

 

Months of March, April, May, June = Baseball / Softball / Track / Soccer

 

The month of July would be an official Dead Period for all sports.

 

Now, I am sure that more of you may have better ideas. I would like to hear them.

Thanks for the info., Kissinger. According to the KHSAA Handbook, "The general control is lodged with a Board of Directors, generally referred to as the Board of Control, fourteen of which are elected by the member schools, and an additional four members appointed by the Kentucky Board of Education. The Association is operated

under the direction of the Kentucky Board of Education and the Commissioner of Education." http://www.khsaa.org/handbook/preface.pdf see Historical Perspective.

 

I'm not clear on the distinction between being operated under the direction of the Board of Education and being a department for our purposes in this discussion. How would this impact forming a second organization in KY? I couldn't find anything to prevent such action.

 

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I could not find reference to any association claiming DeMatha as a member. There is no NFHS Affiliate Association operating in Maryland, according to the NFHS website. Surely, any second association in KY that obtains Affiliate Association status would have the opportunity to play teams from out of state.

 

If enough schools elected to join this new association, I would anticipate the National Federation would make the new group the state association, replacing the KHSAA in that capacity.

 

FBF015 - My reading of the rules indicates it's clearly possible to form a new organization. The real sticking point to me will be play between members of this new organization and KHSAA schools. Surely, KHSAA will block play between the groups in order to weaken the new group. You will need enough members to have competitive schedules for your schools without help from KHSAA. In order to garner this kind of support, I think you will need to be much more specific about what your goals are. Remember, you can legislate intent. What rules/procedures would you have to make this new organization better? Why can't you push for those rules within the structure of KHSAA?

 

 

As to your last one, lets address that first. As long as KRS 156.070 and 702 KAR 7:065 are worded as such, they designate a single entity to manage the sports. They DESIGNATE, not directly execute. In Maryland for example, they are actually a unit, getting a tax appropriation from Maryland state government, etc. The KHSAA, like most other states, is solely self supporting through event revenue, corporate sponsors, ticket sales, and about 10% or so of its funding comes from dues paid by schools the last time I looked.

 

A new association wouldn't have the "economy of scales" and be big enough to sustain itself, unless it contained all of a particular type of school. For example, an association just of all non-public schools might be able to make a go of it, but 40 to 45 schools is not really enough to generate sufficient statewide revenue to manage events, put out rule books, etc.

 

That's why like it or not, the KHSAA has survived since 1917 as the managing entity.

 

As for DeMatha, like many others in other state (Findlay Prep, Oak Hill, etc.), they aren't members of anything. They are nationally and state independent. A second association would have to have a very significant number of members even to be given associate status by the NFHS, and then only if concurred with by the KHSAA, since they have been a long standing member of NFHS. That's just my guess.

Thanks for your input Terp.

 

I think that within a new association, coaches could voice thier opinion more and have more influence on rules and procedures that could occur.

 

For example, the dead period. I know that next year we are suppose to have this new dead period where football is not allowed for the entire month of June, but I do believe other sports can be going on. (correct me if I am wrong on that, but I think that is correct) Some coaches like this new idea, some do not. I do approve of it, but I have heard some that would rather have a true Dead period where all sports are dead for the entire month. Through a new association this could happen. Now before anyone starts telling me football is more demanding and they need that time for basketball / baseball / etc.... let me say this - Kids need time to be Kids

 

Trying to stay on track with goals here - I would want this association to acquire this rule. All sports can only last for a number of months or days, one season during the school year. In the past, we hear about fall baseball / summer basketball / fall and spring soccer / spring football (although I like sring football). I really think that if we are to have true athletes in our high schools, then they should be allow to play more than one sport without being penalized because of conflicting schedules or even coaches daring them to try out for another sport because of some other demand for their sport.

 

Here is an example of what could happen with a school year athletic schedule:

 

Months of: August, September, October, November = Football / Volley Ball / Cross Country

 

Months of: 1/2 November, December, January, February, March = Basketball / Wrestling

 

Months of March, April, May, June = Baseball / Softball / Track / Soccer

 

The month of July would be an official Dead Period for all sports.

 

Now, I am sure that more of you may have better ideas. I would like to hear them.

 

THe new rule was passed by all the member schools. BY the administrators. Frankly, in some cases, the coaches fail to realize where they hit on the totem pole. It isn't at the top. Their opinion is valued, but ultimately, it is the building administrators (principals, superintendents, etc.), who must vote to make changes.

 

If in fact you desire such a dead period change, why not get your principal to make a proposal. Several other schools make proposals all the time, my school has from time to time as well. It just takes initiative and effort. But I would warn you, that the most powerful group of all is not any of these. It is the parents. Because like it or not, they elect the legislators. And the legislators (yes, those in Frankfort), have the final say as they showed last summer. So unless it is something that has grass roots support, it won't fly. Period. Parents now want MORE year round activity, not less. Most of the most recent discussion in my parts of the state deal with allowing the coaches to do MORE in the off season, not less. The primary reason is that the more restricted the high school coach is, the less restrictions seem to apply to "street" coaches, such as youth, AAU, select, etc. Is it really better to restrict our kids time with high school coaches to that small window? You think that will keep them from playing? No, it will simply keep them from playing for the high school coach. If a baseball kid wants to play baseball, he will play for whoever will coach him. Same for other sports.

 

Just a passing thought or two.

Kissinger - Thanks for the knowledge. I stand corrected. Looks like the public schools are locked into the KHSAA unless the statutes are changed. (Private schools could elect to leave and form another organization.)

Thanks for your input Terp.

 

I think that within a new association, coaches could voice thier opinion more and have more influence on rules and procedures that could occur.

 

For example, the dead period. I know that next year we are suppose to have this new dead period where football is not allowed for the entire month of June, but I do believe other sports can be going on. (correct me if I am wrong on that, but I think that is correct) Some coaches like this new idea, some do not. I do approve of it, but I have heard some that would rather have a true Dead period where all sports are dead for the entire month. Through a new association this could happen. Now before anyone starts telling me football is more demanding and they need that time for basketball / baseball / etc.... let me say this - Kids need time to be Kids

 

Trying to stay on track with goals here - I would want this association to acquire this rule. All sports can only last for a number of months or days, one season during the school year. In the past, we hear about fall baseball / summer basketball / fall and spring soccer / spring football (although I like sring football). I really think that if we are to have true athletes in our high schools, then they should be allow to play more than one sport without being penalized because of conflicting schedules or even coaches daring them to try out for another sport because of some other demand for their sport.

 

Here is an example of what could happen with a school year athletic schedule:

 

Months of: August, September, October, November = Football / Volley Ball / Cross Country

 

Months of: 1/2 November, December, January, February, March = Basketball / Wrestling

 

Months of March, April, May, June = Baseball / Softball / Track / Soccer

 

The month of July would be an official Dead Period for all sports.

 

Now, I am sure that more of you may have better ideas. I would like to hear them.

 

 

I'm with Kissinger on this one. I'm one parent not in favor of a long dead period at all. My kids found time to do what they wanted during the summer and that's with them playing football at Highlands, which my guess demands as much time out of kids during the summer as any program in the state. Heck, my kids dreaded the dead period. And as Kissinger pointed out, I like the fact that during the summer, they had a lot of time involved with their high school coaches (who are good role models for my kids). Whats that old saying: idle time is the tool of the Devil. By the time kids get to high school, its a different situation about kids being kids in my mind. If we're really interested in addressing kids not being able to be kids, I think we really should address grades 1-8. That's when I think kids would benefit from more unstructured time. I had one coach (not from Highlands, but I won't disclose where) tell me he wished the dead period was longer, but he admitted privately (and here's the reason I won't disclose where he coached) its because he wanted a longer vacation during the summer to play more golf.

I think that when the KHSAA was formed in 1917 many things were not considered and

correct me if I am wrong but many high school teams played college teams before the

KHSAA was established.

 

There are two many privates that have to much power within the association from the

top down. The Commisioner is a private school graduate and that has to play a role

in the decisions that are made. When the Principals voted for seperation and the body

voted it down I think without a doubt it was time for the KHSAA to be desolved as

the governing body and the public schools to take over. Once again arrogance in

Frankfort took over and threats of lawsuits by Senator Tim Shenhe of Louisville took care of let the people speak about their dissatisfaction.

 

As a coach I take great pride in beating Private schools last year we beat a Louisville

team that had players from Indiana, Bullitt County, Shelby County, and of course

Jefferson County. However, I do get tired of Alan Donhoff telling people they need

to get better and quit whinning. The working hard and getting better comes after

years of preparation but do not tell me that having players like Bernard Jackson and

Chip Mattingly and those type of public school players that end up at the privates have

not had significant impact on X and T. (And by the way Hats off to Louisville Central

they get away from the Private Nightmare and what happens you got it State Champs)

 

While I respect your opinion, I just wanted to post that I totally disagree with it. As to the split proposal, while the Commissioner is a private school graduate, the proposal was defeated at the Board of Control level not by the Commissioner, but by the Board of Control (where a majority of the members are elected by the public schools by the way). They looked at the issue and felt that it was not in the overall best interest of high school athletics, which their fiduciary duty as Board members requires them to do. And it took courage for those members voting against the proposal to do so, as they knew that the bosses of some of them were in favor of the proposal. I was told at least one Board member lost his/her spot on the Board because he/she had the courage to vote his/her conscience and not get bullied into voting for the proposal.

 

I won't address your comments as to what Mr. Donhoff feels about working harder, other than to again point out that parents (I'm one) won't spend thousands of dollars in tuition each year to private schools if there is a free comparable product nearby. Put in more simpler terms, you would't buy a $12 pizza that you had to go pick up, if a comparable pizza could be delivered to your door for free, would you?

Leatherneck, thanks for your input too. I can see strong points on your post as well, and I would have to agree with you about coaches being role models for kids and that being a postive for more time with them.

 

I will say this though, I do think that a longer dead period could be good just to give everyone a break and a chance to re charge themselves for a new season.