What if a woman who is pregnant, gets drunk & falls. Is that murder?

 

here's another hypothetical...

Scenario 1 - A man kills 10,000 people in cold blood, goes to jail & is sentenced to murder. 1 minute before he is put to death, he is baptized.

Scenario 2 - A man lives a full and fruitful life. He is a great man. He gives to charities. He gives to the poor. He helps out his neighbors. He is as close to perfect as anyone can be BUT he is never baptized.

 

You will say that the guy in scenario 2 goes to hades. While I find it morally difficult to be so sure.

 

I don't have a dog in this fight (wow, that takes on a different tone after the M. Vick drama) but I doubt very seriously that many evangelicals will say "that the guy in scenario 2 goes to hades" I don't believe that is up for us to decide.

I don't have a dog in this fight (wow, that takes on a different tone after the M. Vick drama) but I doubt very seriously that many evangelicals will say "that the guy in scenario 2 goes to hades" I don't believe that is up for us to decide.

 

But if you go by the good book doesn't it say that you must be baptized?

But if you go by the good book doesn't it say that you must be baptized?

 

Baptism is an act of obedience after salvation, it plays no part in salvation itself. Salvation is a free gift of God you cannot earn it by doing anything. Jesus paid it all at Calvary.

Baptism is an act of obedience after salvation, it plays no part in salvation itself. Salvation is a free gift of God you cannot earn it by doing anything. Jesus paid it all at Calvary.

 

Everyone is living with sin so you are baptized to wash that sin away and start fresh. So, if you are not baptized then you have sin. Since the guy in scenario 2 was never baptized, he had sin. Will someone with sin go to heaven?

 

"I never knew you!"

 

So, Hound, will the guy in scenario 2 go to heaven or heck?

What if a woman who is pregnant, gets drunk & falls. Is that murder?

 

here's another hypothetical...

Scenario 1 - A man kills 10,000 people in cold blood, goes to jail & is sentenced to murder. 1 minute before he is put to death, he is baptized.

Scenario 2 - A man lives a full and fruitful life. He is a great man. He gives to charities. He gives to the poor. He helps out his neighbors. He is as close to perfect as anyone can be BUT he is never baptized.

 

You will say that the guy in scenario 2 goes to hades. While I find it morally difficult to be so sure.

 

Had to pick up my daughter from basketball practice, was gone for awhile.

 

Scenario 1 and 2 -- As Paul, whose baptism were they baptized into. Key thing and only they and God/Jesus can truly know have they been obedient to Jesus by accepting him as their Lord and Savior and turning their life over to Him.

 

So, you believe works can put you into Heaven? (Scenario 2) You have just made Christ's sacrifice on the cross meaningless because I didn't need him. I could just work my way into Heaven. When Christ said NO ONE can know the Father unless they KNOW the Son, he is not being vague there.

Everyone is living with sin so you are baptized to wash that sin away and start fresh. So, if you are not baptized then you have sin. Since the guy in scenario 2 was never baptized, he had sin. Will someone with sin go to heaven?

 

"I never knew you!"

 

So, Hound, will the guy in scenario 2 go to heaven or heck?

 

I am not sure you are exactly correct there. If a person is in the middle of the desert and he truly gives his life to Christ but there is only sand around, I would hope that the lack of baptism would not keep him out of heaven.

 

I don't think baptism is what removed your sin. Your confessed belief in Jesus Christ, who was sacrifice on the cross for my and your sins is what removed the sin.

 

No one with sin will go to heaven.

Everyone is living with sin so you are baptized to wash that sin away and start fresh. So, if you are not baptized then you have sin. Since the guy in scenario 2 was never baptized, he had sin. Will someone with sin go to heaven?

 

"I never knew you!"

 

The waters of baptism DO NOT wash away sin . . . Christ's blood and sacrifice on the cross did that . . .past sin (justification), present sin (sanctification) and future sin (glorification). Hallelujah! If you are trusting in ANYTHING but the shed blood of Christ then you need to seriously evaluate your spiritual circumstance. We are made righteous through Christ --- not through any action or work on our part. Baptism is an act of obedience that publicly pictures the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as well as our commitment to follow Him. Baptism has absolutely nothing to do with obtaining salvation. JESUS PAID IT ALL.

Baptism is an act of obedience after salvation, it plays no part in salvation itself. Salvation is a free gift of God you cannot earn it by doing anything. Jesus paid it all at Calvary.

 

Except as a symbol that you have turned your life over to Jesus Christ and are obedient to the way he wants us to live our lives.

Had to pick up my daughter from basketball practice, was gone for awhile.

 

Scenario 1 and 2 -- As Paul, whose baptism were they baptized into. Key thing and only they and God/Jesus can truly know have they been obedient to Jesus by accepting him as their Lord and Savior and turning their life over to Him.

 

So, you believe works can put you into Heaven? (Scenario 2) You have just made Christ's sacrifice on the cross meaningless because I didn't need him. I could just work my way into Heaven. When Christ said NO ONE can know the Father unless they KNOW the Son, he is not being vague there.

 

So, the guy in scenario 1 has a chance & the guy in scenario 2 has ZERO chance?? Is that what i'm hearing??

 

I thoughts thats what you would say but I just wanted to see it.

Except as a symbol that you have turned your life over to Jesus Christ and are obedient to the way he wants us to live our lives.

 

If you read my previous posts I said it was an act of obedience---but it is not necessary for our salvation---it is a picture of what Christ has done for us.

So, the guy in scenario 1 has a chance & the guy in scenario 2 has ZERO chance?? Is that what i'm hearing??

 

I thoughts thats what you would say but I just wanted to see it.

 

I would say it's inconclusive...there is no mention of either person accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior in your scenarios. Without that, their baptism or lack of is meaningless...

So, the guy in scenario 1 has a chance & the guy in scenario 2 has ZERO chance?? Is that what i'm hearing??

 

I thoughts thats what you would say but I just wanted to see it.

 

Here was my answer and I am not sure from my answer were you got the above:

 

Key thing and only they and God/Jesus can truly know have they been obedient to Jesus by accepting him as their Lord and Savior and turning their life over to Him.

 

Now, I personally have two options. One, teach upon what Scriptures says. Two, come up with my own version of what Jesus says and disregard what he said. (Honestly, you seem to be doing option 2) Look at Jesus saying that he is the ONLY WAY and ignore that and come up with LBBC's version. NOW, you have a reason to be upset with me and tell me that I am judging and downgrading people. Cause it is MY VERSION.

 

But when Jesus says HE IS THE ONLY WAY, well, I take him at his word that he is the only way. You have the choice to take it however you want.

 

Now my turn to pose a question to you. When Jesus says he is the only way, do you

a) Believe that he is the only way;

b) Believe that he really didn't mean that he was the only way even though that is what he said and a person can work his way into heaven and we really didn't need Christ's sacrifice;

c) Believe that this part of the Bible that stands in contrast to what you want to believe was written by men and you can disregard it.

d) all of the above

e) none of the above

Here was my answer and I am not sure from my answer were you got the above:

 

Key thing and only they and God/Jesus can truly know have they been obedient to Jesus by accepting him as their Lord and Savior and turning their life over to Him.

 

Now, I personally have two options. One, teach upon what Scriptures says. Two, come up with my own version of what Jesus says and disregard what he said. (Honestly, you seem to be doing option 2) Look at Jesus saying that he is the ONLY WAY and ignore that and come up with LBBC's version. NOW, you have a reason to be upset with me and tell me that I am judging and downgrading people. Cause it is MY VERSION.

 

But when Jesus says HE IS THE ONLY WAY, well, I take him at his word that he is the only way. You have the choice to take it however you want.

 

Now my turn to pose a question to you. When Jesus says he is the only way, do you

a) Believe that he is the only way;

b) Believe that he really didn't mean that he was the only way even though that is what he said and a person can work his way into heaven and we really didn't need Christ's sacrifice;

c) Believe that this part of the Bible that stands in contrast to what you want to believe was written by men and you can disregard it.

d) all of the above

e) none of the above

 

I understand your point and were your coming from. In my life, studies, schooling, etc. I have been taught to understand facts, bias, etc. While I do follow the Bible and teachings of, it is still hard to give myself completely to everything that I hear. I was a social studies major so this may explain some things. The Bible was written by disciples so first ALL information in the Bible is second hand information. Do you agree? Those disciples may have some bias'.

 

Also, The Church in the past has:

1. told christians to retake Jerusalem & if they died, they would go to heaven (Crusades). We now bash Muslims for there jihads.

2. had people kicked out of the church (excommunication).

3. had non-believers killed (Inquisition)

4. there are over 200 denominations of Christianity in the United States alone. So, why do these many groups that read the same Bible, interpret it in so many different ways.

5. The Bible is the sole fact on Christianity & was written by humans. What happens if just 1 part is wrong.

 

Religion = faith

Life = fact

^If just one part is wrong, then the whole book is discredited. It means an omniscient God wasn't able to preserve His word...

 

I think most people are aware that the Bible can be misinterpreted. And, it can be (mis)used to promote evil causes by false teachers...that doesn't make the Bible wrong.

 

People can find verses to support their cause by deceiving people and steering them away from other scripture that would contradict what they're saying, or shed light on the correct interpretation...and we can constantly argue over some of the tougher, more difficult and not so clear scriptures. Again, that does not make the Bible wrong, IMO.

 

There are many more verses that are plain and simple, loud and clear as opposed to hard to understand, IMO...when Jesus says he is the only way and there is no other way, there is no misunderstanding that. Either you believe it or you don't. It can't be explained away as a difficult verse.

I understand your point and were your coming from. In my life, studies, schooling, etc. I have been taught to understand facts, bias, etc. While I do follow the Bible and teachings of, it is still hard to give myself completely to everything that I hear. I was a social studies major so this may explain some things. The Bible was written by disciples so first ALL information in the Bible is second hand information. Do you agree? Those disciples may have some bias'.

 

Also, The Church in the past has:

1. told christians to retake Jerusalem & if they died, they would go to heaven (Crusades). We now bash Muslims for there jihads.

2. had people kicked out of the church (excommunication).

3. had non-believers killed (Inquisition)

4. there are over 200 denominations of Christianity in the United States alone. So, why do these many groups that read the same Bible, interpret it in so many different ways.

5. The Bible is the sole fact on Christianity & was written by humans. What happens if just 1 part is wrong.

 

Religion = faith

Life = fact

 

I believe the hand of God probably through the Holy Spirit directed the writing of the Bible. So, no bias. In a sense, it is autobiographical.

 

Also, if the disciples wrote the book, they come across looking HORRIBLE in the book. Wouldn't they not have made themselves look so bad? Wouldn't Peter say, how about playing down that whole rooster crowing 3 times thing or the time Jesus called me Satan.

 

I do not believe in a Centralized Church telling me what to do. I believe that most of what you listed was done by the Catholic Church. I do not subscribe to their teachings on many, many issues. Except, I believe they believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God is our Lord and Savior and are my fellow Christian brothers.

 

#4, I believe Satan is the father of all lies and is very good at what he does. I believe he has people working in his cause, maybe unknowingly to them, to lead people astray. I think we see this a lot in NT where we hear warnings of false prophets and teachers that are trying to lead us astray.

 

And thus, it calls on us to directly study and listen to what the Bible says in it's entirety and not let people lead us astray by pulling out parts and using only that or creating doctrine of what they want to believe (all roads lead towards Heaven and God is going to save us all in the in and there is no such thing as Hell as examples).

 

#5, I believe God was directing the writing of the Bible. And if I cannot believe one statement from Christ and from God, then it is ALL in question. If not, than again it becomes LBBC's view and vision of what in the Bible to live by and what not to live by.

 

Not sure what your equations mean. But I don't believe in being religious but rather have my faith direct my life.