BY the way, is there a book that teaches folks how to whip up the masses?

 

Dr. Dobson used all of the code words early. "Nancy Pelosi-led Congress" "Ted Kennedy" "reward to homosexual ACTIVISTS".

 

Yes. The Bible. Look up any passage discussing Pilate's speech to the Jews. "We want Barrabas!!!"

It depends on what your speech both says and inspires others to do about those with that behavior.

 

For example, the Klan did a good job of whipping up hatred among some (Byron DelayBeckwith for one) into going out and killing Medgar Evers. The Grand Cylcops of Miss. also whipped up the gang in the killing of the 3 Civil Rights Workers portrayed in "Miss. Burning."

 

During the Rwandan Genocide of '94 there were some who had radio shows that whipped the Hutu's into a killing frienzy and they were held culpable to the genocide by Human Rights Courts.

 

 

To proclaim Homosexuality as a sin, even an abhorant sin to God is not the issue. (IMHO) The issue is the Fred Phelp kind of extremism that may lead someone to perpetrate an act of violence on a random homosexual because of their life choices.

 

So do you believe there should be a criminal cause oof action against a preacher who preaches fire and brimstone that homosexuality is a sin and eternal hellfire is the penance, and some nut-job sitting in the gallery goes out and kills a homosexual? I assume then, you are comfortable with criminal prosecution against gun-makers because a nut-job shoots up a school; criminal prosecution of video-game software engineers whose games are taken too literally by some nut-job teenager; criminal prosecution of movie producers because their violent films are imitated. Is there no personal responsibility anymore?

So do you believe there should be a criminal cause oof action against a preacher who preaches fire and brimstone that homosexuality is a sin and eternal hellfire is the penance, and some nut-job sitting in the gallery goes out and kills a homosexual? I assume then, you are comfortable with criminal prosecution against gun-makers because a nut-job shoots up a school; criminal prosecution of video-game software engineers whose games are taken too literally by some nut-job teenager; criminal prosecution of movie producers because their violent films are imitated. Is there no personal responsibility anymore?

 

 

I think you miss my point or intent. I'm not advocating that there is no responsibility for the perpetrators of a crime. I'm saying there is just as much responsibility for the people who go over the edge in inspiring it. There have been plenty of people who spoke out against something in order to bring violence to individuals. Are the libel? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer.

 

Are they morally responsible before God and conscience? You betcha! That is my field.

 

I don't know that this "law" could stand in court if it stops free speech especially in the field of churches and religions. I believe the courts would strike it down as unconstitutional and violate the very heart of the principle of "seperation of church and state." (Ironically the very principle that Dodson and others deride)

 

I guess a more clear example would be the shiek in NYC that was arrested for the '93 bombings. He spoke out to do such harm to the US but he didn't deliver the bomb.

 

Perhaps another would be Charles Manson. He did not actively kill any of those in the Tate/LaBianca murders. But he is in prison for having led others to do it.

 

Just my take Hearsay.

If the preacher says, "God called us to eradicate homosexuals like he did at Sodom and Gomorrah," and then some nut took that and went out and killed someone, I might agree with you, but only if the preacher took some other overt act in furtherance. Merely spewing vindictive about the sin of homosexuality does not rise to the level of a crime, and to punish it is an abridgement of religious speech.

If you are an religious orgnization, and a homosexual applies for a job, and you tell him, "We will not consider your application because you are homosexual and we believe that is wrong and counter to our mission here," under ENDA you could be sued under a cause of action for discrimination.

 

I don't know how it gets any plainer than that.

 

ENDA was initially drafted in response to the Supreme Court's ruling in favor of the Boy Scouts, and now they have the Congress to pass it.

 

Thanks. I thought Dr Dobson was saying that they would not be able to preach as they see fit which is not the case.

 

Good/interesting point on the job applicant.

Thanks. I thought Dr Dobson was saying that they would not be able to preach as they see fit which is not the case.

 

Good/interesting point on the job applicant.

If this law came into being, could you imagine a situation where an overzealous and non-Christian prosecutor had a case where a preacher spoke on the abomination in God's eyes of the homosexual lifestyle and a person left that sermon, went out and killed a homosexual and said he was doing it in the name of God from the preacher's sermon, and then that prosecutor brings charges against the preacher? I could see that happening in this country as the media would begin to drum up the frenzy and pressure from "homosexual activists" grew.

If the preacher says, "God called us to eradicate homosexuals like he did at Sodom and Gomorrah," and then some nut took that and went out and killed someone, I might agree with you, but only if the preacher took some other overt act in furtherance. Merely spewing vindictive about the sin of homosexuality does not rise to the level of a crime, and to punish it is an abridgement of religious speech.

 

 

I would say :thumb: to that. Maybe I misread the application of the bill. I thought it did infer the first and not the last of your scenarios.

If the preacher says, "God called us to eradicate homosexuals like he did at Sodom and Gomorrah," and then some nut took that and went out and killed someone, I might agree with you, but only if the preacher took some other overt act in furtherance. Merely spewing vindictive about the sin of homosexuality does not rise to the level of a crime, and to punish it is an abridgement of religious speech.

There is a HUGE difference between "God called us to eradicate homosexuals" and merely spewing vindictive about sin. One is a call to action, the other is just preaching. If I ask someone to kill someone else, and I believe that a minister saying that God is calling us to kill someone is asking, it strikes me as a crime, even if no one follows up on the request. I would feel the same way about an Imam calling on his followers to kill non Muslims.

There is a HUGE difference between "God called us to eradicate homosexuals" and merely spewing vindictive about sin. One is a call to action, the other is just preaching. If I ask someone to kill someone else, and I believe that a minister saying that God is calling us to kill someone is asking, it strikes me as a crime, even if no one follows up on the request. I would feel the same way about an Imam calling on his followers to kill non Muslims.

Could you see the scenario in #21 happening if this law came to being?

Could you see the scenario in #21 happening if this law came to being?

Never say never, but no, I don't think it would happen.I don't see this legislation as an infringement on religious freedom. That doesn't make it a good idea. I don't know how to handle employment discrimination by religious institutions.

From an email that I received on the status of this law.

 

 

Petition Update – Hate Crimes Approved, ENDA on Hold

 

October 2, 2007

 

Dear Keith,

We have lots of news to share with you from the U.S. Senate.

For more information

about ENDA:

 

Watch our Stoplight video

 

Read our ENDA Fact Sheet

 

and read our CitizenLink article on Hate Crimes passing and ENDA moving forward

 

First, you may have heard that the Hate Crimes bill was approved late last week as an amendment to the Defense Authorization bill. The Hate Crimes bill is the one that will pave the way for Christians who express their biblical beliefs about homosexuality to be prosecuted for committing a "hate crime."

 

However, there are two important bits of good news to share about this otherwise chilling vote. The first is that the president has signaled that he will veto the Defense Authorization bill if Hate Crimes is attached to it. The second is that five senators, who voted in favor of Hate Crimes in 2004, changed their vote this time around and voted against it. This is especially important because the Senate will be unable to override the president's veto.

 

Four of those five Republican senators, Lamar Alexander of Tenn., Robert Bennett of Utah, and Lisa Murkowski and Ted Stevens of Alaska, received your petitions and changed their minds, in part, because of your opposition to the bill. This is a tribute to the power of making your voice heard by your legislators!

 

Second, the Employment Nondiscrimination Act (ENDA) is on hold, after its committee hearing was cancelled again today. But we still can't afford to sit on the sidelines – now is the time to make our voices heard by contacting representatives' district and D.C. offices. Don't forget that ENDA endangers many constitutional rights, and is especially threatening to businesses being able to hire the employees who best meet their business or religious purposes.

 

So here's what you can do to continue to make an impact on behalf of our freedoms:

 

Please call your U.S. representative and urge him or her to vote No on ENDA. Then, please forward this e-mail to your family and friends so they can sign the "Hate Crimes/ENDA" petition, as well as call their representatives, too. For phone numbers for your representative, visit our Action Center.

 

In addition, please call your U.S. senators and either thank them for their vote against Hate Crimes, or let them know you noticed they voted for it. Contact information for your senators is also located in our Action Center.

 

We will continue to keep you posted on these two dangerous bills, so you can continue to make your voice heard. Thank you for already making a difference in the Hate Crimes vote.