I don't need to waste any time convincing you. A poll that you have great faith in is already telling you that. I'm honored that you think I am a more important source than your own polls you are touting though.:jump:

 

For someone that doesn't need to waste any time convincing me, you've spent the entire Saturday doing just that.

 

I guess that there simply are no credible polls that substantiate your claim. Not a problem.

 

Credibility would seem to be hard to come by...

 

 

Frances

 

PS - Heck, bjrb. I know you are trying to find one, so I'll just continue to wait for that link. :thumb:

brjb,

 

Look, regardless of what happens in Iraq or which U.S. political party is at the controls, Islamic extremists will claim victory. To say that if the Democrats win, the terrorists win is overly simplistic to the point of being laughable. Use a little logic here instead of just Rovian fearmongering emotion.

 

If George W. Bush has his way, and U.S. troops are mired in Iraq for the next FIFTY years, the Islamic extremists have a perfect recruiting tool to attract more people willing to join the jihad. They also gain prestige and financing in the Islamic world by pinning down and bleeding the mighty U.S. military in an asymmetric battle that makes our technological edge largely useless.

 

If U.S. forces are withdrawn substantially or completely from Iraq, the jihadists will claim that they defeated the U.S. and drove them out.

 

Either way, we are in a pickle of your boy, "Dubya's" making that the Islamic extremists can spin to their advantage and that has diminished U.S. leadership and influence around the world for decades to come.

 

We lost the day Bush decided to start a war in Iraq with Cheney and Rumsfeld running the show. These guys don't fundamentally understand the nature of the Middle East and think everything can be simplistically boiled down to good guys in white and bad guys in black like an old cowboy movie. George W. Bush committed us to failure when he issued the invasion order.

 

The only choice we have left is what form our failure will take:

 

1) Withdrawing our military forces from the sectarian inferno raging out of control in Iraq.

-or-

2) The continued squandering of our fine military by obstinate morons who never served a day in combat.

Just one man's opinion...

 

You tell me to use logic, then come with that gem as your solution.

You are trying to determine "what form our failure will take," and I'm determined not to fail. That's the difference in the Dems and Republicans.

Leftist. Couldn't you just be a patriotic American that follows the teachings of W Almighty?

 

 

Frances

 

:lol: I used to consider myself a conservative (before that term was hijacked by Karl Rove to do the dubious bidding of George W. Bush). Now that conservatism no longer means fiscal responsibility or foreign policy strength or the judicious, honorable use of our military, I guess I'm just disenchanted.

You tell me to use logic, then come with that gem as your solution.

You are trying to determine "what form our failure will take," and I'm determined not to fail. That's the difference in the Dems and Republicans.

 

Too late. Unless you have some magic pixie dust that can be sprinkled on Iraq to unbreak the broken nation we now own. Iraq is beyond saving. There is no plan capable of turning it around and no amount of staying the course or other trite sound bite will change that. Dem or Republican will not change that. It is increasingly obvious to all but a few dead-enders.

For someone that doesn't need to waste any time convincing me, you've spent the entire Saturday doing just that.

 

I guess that there simply are no credible polls that substantiate your claim. Not a problem.

 

Credibility would seem to be hard to come by...

 

 

Frances

 

PS - Heck, bjrb. I know you are trying to find one, so I'll just continue to wait for that link. :thumb:

 

Nice try, but no go. Twist it any way you want. I don't have to find a poll to tell you what YOUR OWN POLL YOU ARE TOUTING ON HERE is already telling you. EVEN THOUGH I DON'T PUT ANY FAITH IN POLLS, YOU DO, AND YOUR OWN POLL IS GIVING YOU AN ANSWER YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR.

 

Don't bother talking about polls with me anymore. It just underscores how weak your position is. We both have made it clear that you believe opinion polls should dictate policy, and I believe polls are worthless. So you go on quoting your polls, just don't try to throw it back at me to explain when your own polls you tout on here give you a result you don't want to hear.

Too late. Unless you have some magic pixie dust that can be sprinkled on Iraq to unbreak the broken nation we now own. Iraq is beyond saving. There is no plan capable of turning it around and no amount of staying the course or other trite sound bite will change that. Dem or Republican will not change that. It is increasingly obvious to all but a few dead-enders.

 

As much as you would love for failure to be true, and have in fact made it your mantra, it just isn't. I'll never be on the side of anyone arguing for or promoting failure.

...Please provide a link to a poll that states the majority think the war "is not worth fighting."

- and now this -

... and I believe polls are worthless....

That was an amazing 180 degree turn there. In most states, a U-turn that sharp will draw a ticket from the local law enforcement.

 

No - I think I'll just wait patiently for that poll that you are searching for.

 

OR - I could just accept your apology for making a claim that cannot be substantiated....

 

Either way - I'll just wait.

 

 

Patiently,

Frances

... I'll never be on the side of anyone arguing for or promoting failure.

Too late.

 

 

Frances

As much as you would love for failure to be true, and have in fact made it your mantra, it just isn't. I'll never be on the side of anyone arguing for or promoting failure.

 

I'm not arguing for or promoting failure, just calling it like I see it.

 

There's a differece between causing a car wreck and recognizing a car wreck.

What? The Iranian militants didn't release the American hostages until they were certain Reagan had won. They feared him.

 

 

Either you are too young to remember it or you have not done the research.

 

They hated Carter much more than they feared Reagan. They were close to releasing them in October of that year but at the last minute backed out of the deal. This ensured Carter's defeat.

 

I might add having Reagan left them nothing to fear. They struck a little deal with his administration with a few arms and monies for hostages in Lebanon and diverted funds to Nicaragua. Check it out. It was called Iran-Contra.

- and now this -

That was an amazing 180 degree turn there. In most states, a U-turn that sharp will draw a ticket from the local law enforcement.

 

No - I think I'll just wait patiently for that poll that you are searching for.

 

OR - I could just accept your apology for making a claim that cannot be substantiated....

 

Either way - I'll just wait.

 

 

Patiently,

Frances

 

No, I wanted a link, because I thought (correctly), you were making up what the poll really asked. You're going to be waiting a long time for me to look for an opinion poll to make a point. Besides (for about the fifth time) your own poll you tout on here and believe in totally is giving you the simple answer you are looking for. Go look at your own polls you love to tout and stop wasting my time. You've typed about a thousand words trying to get me to find a another poll that confirms what your own poll is telling you.

It proves they are keenly aware which party is a threat to their agenda (terrorism).

 

 

See my whole post next time, not a piece. My point then and still is that it makes no different what THEY think. Only what Americans think. :thumb:

Either you are too young to remember it or you have not done the research.

 

They hated Carter much more than they feared Reagan. They were close to releasing them in October of that year but at the last minute backed out of the deal. This ensured Carter's defeat.

 

I might add having Reagan left them nothing to fear. They struck a little deal with his administration with a few arms and monies for hostages in Lebanon and diverted funds to Nicaragua. Check it out. It was called Iran-Contra.

 

Wrong. They had America paralyzed for all that time due to a very weak president. And bringing up Iran-Contra has nothing to do with the American hostages in Iran. Nice try though.

Either you are too young to remember it or you have not done the research.

 

They hated Carter much more than they feared Reagan. They were close to releasing them in October of that year but at the last minute backed out of the deal. This ensured Carter's defeat.

 

I might add having Reagan left them nothing to fear. They struck a little deal with his administration with a few arms and monies for hostages in Lebanon and diverted funds to Nicaragua. Check it out. It was called Iran-Contra.

Please, Hatz.

 

That's just revisionist history on your part.

 

Everyone knows that the terrorists only released the hostages in an obsequious move to appease the power that only Republican presidents can bring to bear...

 

Then again, some people believe that we didn't cover this same ground back in the 60's.

 

 

Frances

See my whole post next time, not a piece. My point then and still is that it makes no different what THEY think. Only what Americans think. :thumb:

 

I do care what they think. Americans are weak and getting weaker, the more emboldened the terrorists get, the bigger price we pay down the road.