Ward was an elite receiver? Huh?

 

He was good and is probably a Steelers legend but he was far from elite during his last few years in pitt.

You do realize Hines played 8 years with Ben don't you? He didn't just play 2, he played 8, that is more than a career for the majority of NFL players who has a league avg of 3 years. 8 years played with Ben. Not only did he have 8 years with Ben, but in those 8 seasons he only had less than 730 yards 1 time and that was his very last season in 2011. Not only that but he had 5 years of those 8 with over 900 yards receiving including a couple over 1,000 yards. He also amassed a total of 575 receptions in that time. He had seasons of 80,74,71,81,95 receptions in that time also.

 

To think he wasn't elite is a joke. In that same time frame he's had more receptions than Larry Fitzgerald some of those years and I'm sure you would consider Fitz a elite receiver during the same time frame right?

I love me some Hellbird, but you argue in circles worse than any ex girlfriend in the history of the world. First, we aren't saying that he hasn't occasionally had some weapons, had Bettis when he was a shell of himself, then who? Go ahead, google that list. He had Hines, and he was fantastic, but never a primary focus of opposing defenses. And for the record, when did we start comparing them to Bengals teams? Actually, I may have misspoken, you argue via tangents.

 

Ben has been sacked more than the produce at Krogers, yet still does his thing. Some of those are on him, but most of those are because the OL has been junk. I think the point was he never had an elite receiver. I'd also argue that Ben made Hines more than vice versa if he's your only argument.

 

I agree with what you are saying about the number of times he's been sacked. I also stated earlier his O-Line is horrendous. That we've never disagreed on. My point is saying he hasn't had weapons around him is just ludicrous. First Halfback says he only had Hines in his last couple years when his career was over, I pointed out he had Hines for 8 years....that 5 years longer than the avg NFL career. To think teams didn't scheme around Hines is stupid, of course they did. Are you a fan of any team in the AFC North? During Ben's hay day itr was Hines and Bettis who they would scheme around period. How could you not, if you ignored Hines then you found yourself out of a job pretty quick.

 

People also seem to forget about his TE's. Heath Miller may not be a Hall of Famer when it's all said and done but he has been pretty darn good especially early in his career.

 

I guess I would need to understand your definition of "Elite Reciever" then. I would think any WR that is a hall of fame receiver would be considered elite.

 

I think what has happened is the Steelers are horrible and their fans are too busy trying to find excuses for Ben's downslide. The line is horrible, but then at the same time his play hasn't been anything to write home about either.

I agree with what you are saying about the number of times he's been sacked. I also stated earlier his O-Line is horrendous. That we've never disagreed on. My point is saying he hasn't had weapons around him is just ludicrous. First Halfback says he only had Hines in his last couple years when his career was over, I pointed out he had Hines for 8 years....that 5 years longer than the avg NFL career. To think teams didn't scheme around Hines is stupid, of course they did. Are you a fan of any team in the AFC North? During Ben's hay day itr was Hines and Bettis who they would scheme around period. How could you not, if you ignored Hines then you found yourself out of a job pretty quick.

 

People also seem to forget about his TE's. Heath Miller may not be a Hall of Famer when it's all said and done but he has been pretty darn good especially early in his career.

 

I guess I would need to understand your definition of "Elite Reciever" then. I would think any WR that is a hall of fame receiver would be considered elite.

 

I think what has happened is the Steelers are horrible and their fans are too busy trying to find excuses for Ben's downslide. The line is horrible, but then at the same time his play hasn't been anything to write home about either.

Wow, well, on some of those points I will concede we just won't agree, but I would bet I'm one of the more discerning Steeler fans out there. I'm certainly not afraid to call a turd a turd. And with all due respect, Ben is as good now as he's ever been. He didn't play particularly well last night, but his numbers last year indicate your assertion is mistaken.

Ben is a HOFer without a doubt. Ward was not an elite receiver in my mind. He did the small things well, such as blocking where he was the best at that position I have ever seen. He also was clutch when they went his way. He had average speed, good hands and very tough. If he makes the HOF which he will be close, it is because of his intangibles and he is a Steeler. Being a Steeler gives you national attention.

 

Ben was off last night, no doubt, but I do not want him making a play against the Bengals with the game on the line. He has shown way too many times he can deliver. He has never been a great passer with accuracy unless he is moving. I really believe the AFC North knows to keep him in the pocket and take your chances with him in there, that's why they are the most successful against him. They are most successful because they play him so often. That is any division. The Dolphins play Brady well because they play him a lot. The rest of the league don't play Ben enough to really understand. You can point it out to the players, but until he beats you with his escapability a few times, it is hard to understand.

Wow, well, on some of those points I will concede we just won't agree, but I would bet I'm one of the more discerning Steeler fans out there. I'm certainly not afraid to call a turd a turd. And with all due respect, Ben is as good now as he's ever been. He didn't play particularly well last night, but his numbers last year indicate your assertion is mistaken.

I never said Ben was bad.

 

The only thing I have disagreed with is when someone makes a post saying he's never had any weapons, Or, He has accomplished more with less than any other QB. I think plenty of Brady lovers would disagree with that.

 

Like I said, no one has given me their definition of elite so I don't know what else to say except that

1. Ben has played with 2 Hall of Fame weapons on the offensive side of the ball and played with both of them at the same time.

 

2. For Hines not to be considered elite, he is afterall the all time receptions leader for the Steelers franchise, and last I checked they have at least 2 WR's in the hall of fame from the 70's.

 

To give a breakdown of the Steelers all time receiving records

Hines has around 4,000 more receiving yards than any other Steeler in franchise history

 

Hines also has more than 20 TD's over the next closest receiver in franchise history

 

Hines averaged 117 yards per game his entire career, only 1 other receiver for the Steelers have avg over 100 yards a game and that was John Stallworth and Hines averaged 15 yards more a game than Stallsworth

 

Hines had almost 500 receptions more than any other receiver in Steelers history

 

So would someone please give me their definition of elite?

 

Now if you consider Elite meaning the same as some on here consider "Athletic" then you are correct, Hines was never a speedster. However, Speed does not equal great.

Pittsburgh Steelers Career Receiving Register | Pro-Football-Reference.com

I never said Ben was bad.

 

The only thing I have disagreed with is when someone makes a post saying he's never had any weapons, Or, He has accomplished more with less than any other QB. I think plenty of Brady lovers would disagree with that.

 

Like I said, no one has given me their definition of elite so I don't know what else to say except that

1. Ben has played with 2 Hall of Fame weapons on the offensive side of the ball and played with both of them at the same time.

 

2. For Hines not to be considered elite, he is afterall the all time receptions leader for the Steelers franchise, and last I checked they have at least 2 WR's in the hall of fame from the 70's.

 

To give a breakdown of the Steelers all time receiving records

Hines has around 4,000 more receiving yards than any other Steeler in franchise history

 

Hines also has more than 20 TD's over the next closest receiver in franchise history

 

Hines averaged 117 yards per game his entire career, only 1 other receiver for the Steelers have avg over 100 yards a game and that was John Stallworth and Hines averaged 15 yards more a game than Stallsworth

 

Hines had almost 500 receptions more than any other receiver in Steelers history

 

So would someone please give me their definition of elite?

 

Now if you consider Elite meaning the same as some on here consider "Athletic" then you are correct, Hines was never a speedster. However, Speed does not equal great.

Pittsburgh Steelers Career Receiving Register | Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

You make good points for Ward, but he played in the passing era and Stallworth and Swann did not. This is why the HOF selection is really difficult when trying to compare eras. When Hines played he wasn't IMO opinion someone that garnered the attention a Moss or a Fitzgerald or a Megatron garnered. I doubt if Hines was ever doubled much. To me, and there really is no definition for elite, the truly elite ones you had to game plan around them and they still beat you.

 

It is so subjective and thus why people will always see things differently. In reality, that is one of the reasons the NFL is so popular.

Has Roethlisberger ever had a Green, Megatron or Dez?

 

No, not quite, but he has had some pretty good WR's over the years.

Um, Hines averaged 55+ yards per game. So, let's at least get the stats right. Jeez.

 

Stallworth averaged 53.

 

AB averages 67+