Intentional Foul

And thus the problem...without any definite guidelines there will always be controversy. But if everyone agreed there would be no reason to have BGP - and what would be the fun of that?

Ah, just being a good samaritan....I can respect that!

Good luck to all the 16th region girls who made the all state or honorable mention lists: Emily Queen Laura Terry Jessica Fortman Chinwe Okoro Whitney Seales Megan Hughes The 16th region fans definitely have a lot to be proud of this year.

Thanks for the explanation. I actually feel that you have some valid points for your position-although I don't entirely share your viewpoint. Only why did you bother posing the "puzzle" to begin with? By posting this explanation first you would have saved us a lot of time and effort:lol:

Scooter, the underlying theme of your posts have been that Euton was treated unfairly by the male voting coaches of this region. You have stated several times in many threads that you feel that 1) Euton was not chosen solely because she has been discriminated against by male coaches and 2) RH does not win year end awards because the region voters conspire against RH. I don't care so much whether Kidwell wins the award than why you feel Euton has been so conspired against by area coaches. My responses have been to show that Euton has not been unfairly treated, but that other coaches may have some claim to the COY award. As I have stated NUMEROUS times I did not say Kidwell was the best choice for the award, all I said was that he should be considered. I DID say however, that I agreed with LRCW and his facts of a 27-6 record, 6-1 district record, and winning the EKC should put him in the running (just like Euton's record should put her in the running , but not guarantee her the award). I have also seen Kidwell coach on many occassions and I do know that he is a good X's and O's coach. Kidwell also is a good disciplinarian, but from talking to several of his players personally that he is still well liked and respected by the players. Now answer my questions - Give me reasons why Euton should be a lock for this award. AND do you believe any area coaches besides Euton qualify for this award?

Scooter, you have supplied one fact as to why Coach Euton should win COY - That her team won the region. I have supplied you with many reasons (facts if you will) as to why Euton, while a good coach, is not a lock for the COY. More specifically: 1) RH was given a preseason #3 STATE ranking at the beginning of the season by a well respected newspaper. Thus RH’s defeat in the opening round of state may actually be seen as a disappointment by some (although I am not one of them - I congratulate RH for their postseason success.) 2) RH returned 2 Miss Basketball candidates and a player many feel was all-area caliber. In other words, IMO this team should win with even an adequate coach at the helm. 3) RH has an excellent Xs and Os assistant coach in Mark Watkins. I know this for a fact because I have played ball with him, talked to him about coaching strategy, and seen him coach form the bench. 4) And while this is not a fact, just my opinion, I explained that a good record, though important, does not always determine a great coaching job. Some of the best coached teams end up around .500 due to inferior talent. As previously stated, I am not saying that Kidwell should win the award, so I will not supply facts to support his winning of COY (even though LRCW's post does an excellent job of doing this). My position is that Euton does not automatically win the COY solely because her team went to state. Other area coaches also have positive qualifications that put them in the running. Now that I have stated my position (without getting into reasons why Euton my not be the best choice-something I refuse to do on this forum), Tell me Scooter, what facts besides going to state guarantees that Euton wins the award? In regard to your Rupp comment, I agree that winning is important at the high school level, however if that is all our children learn then high school sports is in a sorry state. Coaches teaching players things such as team loyalty, manners, respect for coaches players and refs, good sportmanship, mental toughness, and I could go on...should be even more important. Remember we are talking about high school kids here, not adults.

And therein lies the problem. Scooter looks at posts as person attacks toward him, where there are only winners and losers. I, however, like to take a more mature approach and look at posts as debates where open minded individuals can learn something from each other. A situation where everyone wins.

As I previously stated "..an utter waste of my time"

Different thread, same old story. Instead of a puzzle, Scooter, I pose to you a question - Why would anyone want to respond to your inquiries? Talk about a futile proposition. If anyone disagrees with you, you reject their comments as hearsay, smokescreens, veiled shots, bias, prejudice, etc... You have even spoken out against fellow RH supporters for only giving their opinion (ie..”joined the lynch mob”), just because it does not support your own. The only way someone could answer your question is by bashing Coach Euton and explaining why she is not a good coach, or at least not good enough to win the COY. This is something I refuse to do in a public forum. I have too much respect for Coach Euton, her staff, RH fans, and the players to resort to this. And by the way, I never said that Euton wasn't justified in winning this Award. I also never said that Kidwell should win it. I just said that I can see why they, along with some other area coaches could be in the running for it. I could of course write to you in a PM explaining why a number of coaches including Coach A could be justified in winning the COY. But it would, of course, be an utter waste of my time. I would rather spend my time in more constructive matters. If you feel so strongly that your opinion (and it is an opinion no matter how many "facts" you have to back it up) is the correct one, you should be able to sleep very well at night. Who cares what everyone else thinks? Can we now stop beating this horse? It’s been dead for quite a few days now.

As I have stated in other threads I fully support the selection of Kidwell. I do think that this year it has been tough to come up with a clear concensus. I agree that Trimble, Brown (Morgan Cty), and Euton also could have been considered for this award. A coach that might have been overlooked by many was Bill Bradley at Ashland. Bradley may not be as flashy as some of the coaches in the region but the guy can coach. He's steadily improved the Kittens each year from 3 wins, to 8 wins, to 17 wins over the past three years AND with basically the same team...and all the players except one will still be only juniors or younger next season. Bradley's team beat regional contender Raceland this year, a much larger veteran Boyd team in districts, and senior laden West Carter team in regionals. Ashland did not pad their schedule this year to achieve the 17 wins either. Pretty good coaching job if you ask me.

I also believe that Morgan County's coach Jeff Brown did an admirable job this season. His team improved to 16-10. I believe that they have many of their key players back next year (including Eagle), so they will be a team to watch.

With the end of the basketball season comes many COY awards. With these COY awards come a lot of discussion about who should win them. My questions is...What qualities/abilities/talents make up a good coach? Is it just good Xs or Os, or is it something more?

Scooterbob, I usually enjoy the back and forth banter that posters involve themselves with on BGPs, but this has just become tiresome. I have honestly tried to explain my reasonings and what facts I have used to reach them. Obviously I have either done a poor job or expressing myself or you are just not willing to listen. Either way, this has become a futile exercise. You tell me that coach A deserves to win based on postseason success, I tell you that I look at post season success and several other factors (ie..preseason team expectations, player talent, etc...). You might say that I am dancing Scooter, but as they say "it takes two to tango" If so , you are one heck of a dance partner!!!!

Scooterbob, I have tried not to get into the specifics of why I believe certain coaches or players should or should not receive certain awards. Although I feel that my personal opinions are well supported by fact, my reasoning may be hurtful to certain coaches and players. I don’t feel that this is a useful purpose of a public forum. However, I feel I can elaborate on my position without producing hard feelings. Scooter, in selecting a COY, you place a very high weight to how far the coach’s team gets in the postseason. This is a legitimate argument. This fact should be taken into consideration. However, IMO, postseason success is only one factor in a much bigger equation. Now before I incur the wrath of RH fans throughout the tri state, let me say that I think that Coach Euton is a good coach, a very good person and treats the RH girls wonderfully. This is a huge part of coaching successful girls basketball and she should be commended. However, there is also an Xs and Os element that cannot be ignored. Two years ago, RH advanced to the finals of state with Queen, Terry, and K. Faulkner (3 legitimate all state candidates) and B. Faulkner, Spradlin, and Yates (3 very talented role players). IMO, even an average coach (and remember I said that Euton was a good coach) could have achieved this success with this team. This last year, RH had 2 Miss Basketball candidates and a player that many believe should have been an all-area selection. Throw in an excellent Xs and Os assistant coach and you have one heck of a team - a team that was ranked by one publication as being 3rd in the state preseason. My point is, I have seen some teams end with sub 500 records and felt their coaches deserved coach of the year. With little available talent, these teams overachieved, due in large part to a great coaching job. Some people may not agree with me. After I make my decision, I feel that I have personally solved the puzzle. Another person may believe that the puzzle is still largely unsolved. I have never stated that Euton should not receive COY, I have just said that it is not a given that she should receive it. Everyone has their own set of facts they follow in making their final decisions. Depending on a person’s viewpoint, several area coaches could be viable COY candidates, and I would support several of these selections

Scooter, over and over, I read about how your facts justify all your conclusions. You cite reasons why a certain coach or player should be awarded with certain awards. Hey, that's great-support you’re team-nothing wrong with that and it can even be admirable. However, to say that someone else's conclusions are utterly wrong, biased and without any factual backing goes over the line. Given the same set of facts, or more importantly adding facts to a specific scenario, can lead to different conclusions. In some cases, to say that one conclusion is more valid than another is narrow-minded thinking. We are all talking about SUBJECTIVE awards here where there are NO specific guidelines. The facts you present may be correct, but not enough support for some to agree with you. It is a personal choice. In your goodly number of comments, you seem to give credence only to those posters who agree with you. You summarily reject all other viewpoints. This leads me to believe that there may be bias in your own conclusion, thus damaging (in my opinion) the strength of your position. Bottom line – season awards are by their nature subjective. Just because your view of reality differs from another doesn’t mean you are right and they are wrong. In this type of voting, there are no absolutes, regardless of how strongly you feel about a subject.

Looks like goherd96 touched a nerve.....

Just to make it clear that I am not taking any shots (thinly veiled or otherwise) at any school, coach, or fans thereof, let me just plainly say that I agree with LRCW. I also feel that several area coaches could have won the COY, but that I do not disagree with the choice of Merle Kidwell. I have also heard that Queen won the POY award. If this is true, I also offer my congratulations to her for such a fine season. She is truly worthy of such an award.

No "personage" here. Just stating the facts. One preseason poll vs. another. Which should be less apt involve collusion? a) A poll of area coaches b) A poll of statewide coaches As they say....You say potato and I say potahto

What if Coach B's team was rated #3 preseason IN THE STATE. Does this change the solution to the puzzle?

Its hard for me to comment on the players selected since I have not seen the list. However, if I were to make my own list, I don't believe I would select Faulkner. Don't get me wrong, she is a very good player, but looking at the Daily Independent year end stats, she does not make the list for any statistical category (ie-scoring avg, assists, fg %, ft %, 3 pt shooting, etc...) I will be curious to see the list when it is put in the paper. Anyone know when this will be?

I realize that Joe B. was at UK for 13 years - I was talking "on average".

It amazes me how so many people talk about Tubby's "decent" record at UK. 26.3 wins a year is an unbelieveable feat, even if you don't get a national championship. Again, just another example of the unrealistic expectations of UK fans. As for Tubby leaving UK high and dry, give me a break. He spent 10 years in the pressure cooker known as UK basketball - besides Rupp, he lasted as long as any UK coach and did so with class. In today's current sports environment, I don't think we'll ever see anyone stay at UK for more than 10 years. At UK, every coach is going to eventually wear out his welcome, no matter what his overall record.

I've always thought Billman was one of the better refs of the 16th. I'd support him as assigning sec.

Another great comment IMO!!!!

All very good pointsthat I totally agree with. During the regular season, I think that girls teams are playing more aggressive man to man defense than in the past. Teams are not allowing girls to take the outside jumper anymore by just sitting back in a zone.