SilverShadow

I agree wholeheartedly. Parents should be able to send their children to the closest Catholic school if that is their wish. Even if this choice happens to mean the student has to cross a state line .Or in the case of central Ky county lines .

So why isn't the Diocese of Covington and the Archdiocese of Cincinnati leading the charge against the OHSAA to allow students from KY be able to participate in Ohio? Matter of fact, the Superintendent of schools for the Diocese of Covington called it a non issue. Why? Protecting their own NorKY turf? A great swimmer could forget about CovCath and go to Cincy St. X and really make a difference? Where is the energy to make that option available? If it is just as viable for Indianna residents to play in KY athletic association events then why does the Diocese of Covington not show the same focus to make such available for those to play in Ohio?

You do realize that special needs kids can and do attend some private schools....

Absolutely I do! However, your key word is "some" not all. You do know ALL public schools MUST accept special needs, regardless of circumstance?

You continue to "not get it". The private schools would operate as they currently do. The introduction of a voucher wouldn't require the schools to accept anyone that they wouldn't already admit. Vouchers would allow some families that can't otherwise send their kids to a private school, do so if they felt the need.They would still need to apply to the school and be admitted. The students would have to obey the rules of the school. The money is generated by the taxpayers for the taxpayers, so why not give them some options in how to spent it. What are you so afraid of ?

So if a student with special needs has a voucher, his chance at a private school can be denied? And that is OK?! :sleep:

And you say, I do not get it?!

Do you think your the first person to think this would actually have a chance and would work. Sorry.

TA, private schools would not have to operate the same way but would have to comply with all things regulations. Or, as you suggest change the rules of the game. What is important to note by your comments is public schools are defined by many rules and regulations and some advocate the private schools would be better without the rules and you simply point out change the rules then see what happens.

With tax money is accountability. Or, at least that is what everyone wants to hear.

How did I not answer it? Vouchers are not intended to allow the private schools to totally replace public schools. They are a choice, not a requirement.So the premise of your post is faulty. And I am right on vouchers, they are coming and you can't stop it. FYI, I read in the CJ this morning about the fudging of graduation rates. It appears that you guys are doing even worse than we thought. I suggest that you guys admit you need help, support vouchers and give folks a choice.

Thank you for showing your bias.

Oh, one last question since you did not answer it, how will the private schools manage manifestation hearings vs. expulsions? I would like to hear YOU answer the question.

Don't you worry your little head about any of that. There are competent people in charge that would work out those issues. People that have a track record of success. I have faith in their ability. We would be able to continue on as we always have because vouchers would allow the option to attend a private school not require it. What laws (I repeat, laws) don't private schools obey at the present time? If you are aware of any law breaking by private schools please contact the proper law enforcement agency. :lol:

FYI, vouchers are coming so you better get used to the idea.

Thanks for totally not answering and avoiding. That is exactly why you are dead wrong on vouchers.

The fact is I haven't advocated closing private schools. I was making a point. I think you knew that.

Secondly, why don't we try the vouchers and see if they work? Lets just see if anyone would use them. You guys claim that it costs around 8K to educate a student. Offer 4K in the form of a voucher and the county would save 4K for every student that accepts them. If the numbers in the publics drops the way I think it would, we could close some schools and consolidate thus saving even more money by reducing overhead. If no one accepts them as you predict, what have you lost? And no, the private schools aren't overcharging. The cost of the education actually exceeds the tuition and the difference is made up by private contributions. But sometimes that 4K would be more than enough to get certain families over the hump and able to afford private school for their child. Sounds like a WIN/WIN.

And how would you house all the new students? And how would you hire all the needed teachers? And how would you get all the teachers and schools to be in compliance with the law? And how would you accept the management of manifestation hearings vs. expulsions? And how would you accept transportation obligations, day care obligations? It could go on and on. What you are really asking is give you the money without any accountability. That will never happen. AND, if you accept vouchers are you going to suggest the private school will unconditionally accept the student regardless of any issues? Yeah, right. :lol:

Also, for vouchers to even be considered, the law has to change and that will not happen.

I don't understand....Who are the emotional anti-public school posters you speak of?

Not you, unless I paused you to think again.

Your points are always acknowledged and appreciated. Sometimes, just not correct.

I have mentioned this in many of my posts. Compulsory education has outlived its usefulness.

 

I do not think this is true SS. If we rid our schools of those who do not want to be educated, the students that are left will be better off.

 

If those students are forced to stay home and mommy and daddy must keep an eye on them. They (the parents) may take a bigger interest in their child’s education, just to get them out of trouble on the streets.

 

The second thing that may happen is that those who were not able to get an education may value it when they get older and have children. They will realize that it was harder for them to succeed without and education and they will want their children to fair better than themselves (Human Nature).

Therefore, they will send their children to school and put a greater emphasis on their child’s education.

 

Yes, we may loose a little across the board but in the long run 20-30 years from now we will have an even greater advantage worldwide in education.

Oldschool you are making just a few assumptions. Check your comments. A great deal of the circumstance problems do not have a mom AND a dad. Second, do you really wish to empower minor age children, succumb to the ignorance of do not care, trash parent(s) and allow such to totally, not only eject from education but ultimately eject from society. Fast forward a generation and you will truly have a class society and a major set of problems. Please note, many immigrants come to this country leaving a class society. Be careful to set the tone to create one.

. And I get paid to try to understand both sides of issues.

Now that is the job to have! :lol:

Hey! What about this theory:

 

 

Kentucky has far too many counties. Why don't we reduce the number by half, then every county will have twice as many kids as their property. Leave Jeff Co alone, though. Population wise, we're way larger anyway.....

I can and do agree with your suggestion. However, it seems the most emotional anti public school posters seem to have a major problem with Jefferson County Schools.

Must be making good points! :scared:

Have no issues with private schools at all.

I understand it is "do-able" but where would the money come from to get temporary classrooms and to hire the extra teachers. Even in the best case plan like NKY where there are way too many schools and some extra capacity at schools a 23% gain could be managed but there would be some cost.

 

Is there an "emergency fund" for such things, would the money come from other budgets of the state, or would the taxpayers be expected to pay?

There is a contingency in every school district and the state. There is no case history of this to happen. However, we can look to recent events in the Gulf region and see the federal programs were temporary changed and allowing funding to flow into teacher hiring, assets, etc. The construction part is probably insurance. That is the only realistic case to reference.

It just comes down to the fact that you think the government is the one and only answer and I don't. I'm sure if the private sector had half of he funds that the government has to provide education it would improve. You are a socialist and don't agree, thats fair. You will be on the wrong side of history.

So, you really do not want a voucher program or not? Or is this simply a case of having your cake and eating it to? Which is it.

So far you have argued to close the private schools to prove some "point", then you said to keep such schools open and let them have "vouchers", now you claim education would improve if private schools got "half" of the funds.

To your last point, at least in NorKY the tuition charged by private schools is way more than half of what most of the public schools receive. More along the lines of 75% to 80% and that is without providing many programs. So are you now saying the private schools are currently overcharging? And if all the public schools quit how would the private schools build all these new classrooms and hire all these new teachers. Please, show us the way. :sssh:

The dumbing down of the curriculum?

That is funny. From what I understand the curriculum, which I would think all of the public schools, is aligned according to what the Kentucky Department of Education mandates with the Cats Testing, which is a part of our state government.

Which has been accepted by the federal government, under Republican leadership, known as NCLB.

I'm coming up with fantasies? How about this. The public school system in Kentucky is one othe worst in the country yet you would have us turn even more students over to you and somehow that would improve the situation. What really needs to happen is a voucher system that would give parents some real choice and force the public schools to compete. Then we would see some improvement.

It was only a matter of time before the hidden agenda became clear! :ylsuper:

Tell you what LSURock, you want vouchers, fine. As soon as the private receiving schools agree to accept ALL the parameters of operation the public schools must do, that is fine. That goes from NCLB to everything else. You do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Seriously what does happen?

 

Not in the closing of all private schools but what would happen if say a private school of 200 went out of business and the 200 students joined 300 at a public high school. If the public school go not fit them in the building or if they had to hire more teachers is there some way to get money for that other than from the people in that county?

There have been cases before and the construction logistics is a temporary matter. However, there is an entire industry that deals with classroom needs that are on demand. That is really the one big issue and it is not that big an issue. Teachers? Well, what about those already unemployed by the closing, plus there are many people looking to become teachers, as of now.

For the sake of making the point clear and how this is not that fearful of an event, however unlikely. Please note: Take NorKY for instance. Total student population for public schools is just over 50,000 students in the three counties. The total population of private schools is just over 11,000. If such closing occured, it is a 23% gain to public school demand. That is very large but not overbearing. Keep in mind Boone County has been dealing with 5 to 10% every year. And, many of the schools have some capacity already in the building, not much but there is a fair number.

But, as I said before in a prior post, this is very much a shallow issue and very much an empty threat. Certainly, not a case in point to make one's point in support for private schools.

No, you are the one that is wrong. Answer this. If all the private schools closed tomorrow and all the kids enrolled in public schools, would our taxes increase or decrease? You are correct in assuming that higher enrollments would be welcomed by the schools along with the money that it brings, but where does that money come from? In Louisville the JCPS system gets tax revenue for not educating thousands of students that elect to attend private schools. I don't regret my choice at all but I'm pretty tired of NEA fuzzy math. "higher amount from the state"? "federal money would be increased"? and this money would come from what source? Don't bother to answer, we all know this one. If you aren't in politics, you should consider it.

Close the schools and let's find out. But, since that is so unrealistic it does not warrant debate it is actually silly. Does the comment "shallow threat" mean anything? Because that is exactly what this is and has no merit. But, if you find comfort in coming up with fantasy set of circumstances, go right ahead.

I am sincere in asking this question. I have no hidden agenda to spring upon anyone who responds. I genuinely want to understand how the issue of tuition at a private school is even worthy of consideration.

See, I must have made a mistake. Took your comment of hidden agenda and made a bad assumption that may mean no foregone conclusions by your part. But, thanks for making it clear.

And as to your multiple choice options you left quite a few off the table. So, just add one to it. Private schools have been suggestion their financial aid only covers "up to 50%" of the cost of tuition. OK, so if you had 100 students apply and had absolutely no ability to pay, would they get a waiver of the 50% or not. And if they would, then the 50% financial aid arguement is not valid. If they would not, then thank the Lord for public schools for many in our country and there, public schools is significantly better.

I assume you mean self serving in that there are components in private school education not offered in public school education (i.e. Religious instruction). I really am hoping that's what you mean, as I would really hate to think you'd posted that as a negative comment about the Private schools.

 

Fastbreak, I don't think many people either understand, or believe, that at least for religiously affiliated private schools, people would pay for the privilage of having religious instruction, and religiously focused activities for their children.

 

I also don't believe that most believe the education is better in respect to the core curriculum per se, but that it does exist in that the Private schools are able to maintain stricter disciplinary policies, and other tangible and intangible ways.

No, it is not meant as a negative but a point of position. Public schools are MANDATED to offer and accept the entire community. ANY private school can choose its rules and grounds for acceptance and operation. It is a "self serving" enterprise. Just like a public golf course vs. a private country club.

That does not take away its value to those who participate in its programs or the many good works such performs. It is simply a parameter of difference between the two.

I appreciate your opinion, but if you read any of the many threads already posted on this topic, the public school proponents insist that across similar socio-economic groups the test scores are indistinguishable.

 

Either the publics admit that a private school education is superior, and therefore an incentive in and of itself, OR that a public education and a private education are equal, thus eliminating tuition as an incentive.

 

It can't be both ways.

You fail to acknowledge the fact that public education is MANDATED by law and private education is created by self serving groups.

Fastbreak, your economic model is all wrong. You are making the wrong assumption the financing of public education is a static amount. The more students enrolled in a school the higher amount from the state. Also, you have growth financing that would kick in if the increase were to hit a certain amount. Also, federal money would be increased under a number of different options.

I do not know of any public school district that is thankful not to have more students enroll in their schools vs. many private schools I know that cap and limit the amount of students they are able/willing to accept.

SS, I understand your point about "what do we do with those kids", but when does it come to the point of what's best for all the REST of the kids? At some point, this madness of assuming the school must police our children must stop, and parents MUST be held responsible for the care and actions of their children! I know it's not a popular opinion to hold. But let me be the first to say that I'm all about 2nd chances, until the multiplier on the 2nd chances exceeds single digits.

You are correct. But here is the macro risk we run as a society if we travel down this road: We will lose the one MAJOR and SIGNIFICANT world advantage we have in education and that is having the most and best educated population, by far, in the world.

Those of us who value education understand the need for it. The real question comes from how to create the motivation for others who currently reject it, come to embrace it. Many public schools are trying to find the answer to this and I wish to add, not getting any credit for trying to do it.

Excellent point, Rockmom, and this is one point on which I am firmly in the conservative camp. In my opinion, a free education in this country should be a privilege, not a right. It should be a privilege afforded to all, but subject to forfeiture when repeated disciplinary actions are needed for a given individual. If public schools had the right to simply exclude kids that are chronically disruptive, the VAST majority of disciplinary problems would evaporate in about a one month period. At that point in time, real education of the remaining kids would begin in earnest, in all of our public schools.

 

This is one place where the law forces the overwhelming majority to suffer for the illusionary betterment of the few.

 

Frances

Makes one wonder where the conservative leadership is in this state? Do you know in KY, it is found illegal to deny a driver's license if one is suspended or expelled or a problem issue in school? On one hand there is compulsory attendance yet no denial of one of the things that will get their attention. Anyone think driving a car, having a license is a "right". Well, in this state, it is.

If we are to accept the premise to deal with the most problematic, then the state AND federal government will need to roll back NCLB. Do not hold any school accountable for test scores or responsibility for a student that has a clear discipline problem via multiple suspensions and/or an expulsions. Allow the school to record the problem issue and at a third strike you are out level, allow for that student's removal from the school with no consequence to the school.

Having said all that and hearing the above suggestions, I have one question. What do you propose to do with the thousands of kids this will result in?

In NorKY, this number would be somewhere between 800 to 1,200 kids. One entire school! Please do not suggest to educate in a separate area. The state will not and the community will not agree to pay for it.