SilverShadow

Both you and Tigershark continue to make a claim of better educational results with private schools vs. public schools. Excluding myself, several have asked for support of such statements. Yet, public school supporters have provided links and facts. Now, you wish to remove from the measurement part of the debate. That is all OK. You are not the first to wish to stop from the challenge when the debate goes from the assumption to the factual.

If you know as much about the state of eduction in Kentucky as you profess, then you must know that Kentucky's public schools admister and report test scores because they are compelled to do so by law; and you also must be aware that private schools are not subject to the accountability laws governing publicly funded schools. If you are aware of these facts, why ask Tigershark to produce data that you know not to exist?

 

Data does exist to show that, on average, private schoo; students fare better on college entrance tests than their public school counterparts. Would you accept having those stats posted as support for Tigershark's position, or would you change the focus of your argument? Just wondering before I dig up those statistics myself. No reason to waste time trying to make a point that doesn't count with the judges. :lol:

Sure, why not. While you are at your simple math calculation, try to advance yourself with a little sub data analysis. Make sure to include the percent of a public school population that are special needs and free/reduced lunch vs. private schools. Or are you of the opinion that entire student populations do not need to be measured?

When one actually removes those students who fall under those particular sub groups and those scores removed from the testing pool, you will actually find better education results in the public school vs. the private. As noted in a Christian Science Monitor article (A religious publication saying public schools are doing better than private?!), measured like demographic groups of students, public schools are providing better results.

And, I am well aware of the testing publication parameters of public education. What I find most interesting is the fear of the private schools to measure themselves publically to similar or same tests.

Yes they are posting links, both of which destroyed their own argument. I will provide some useful links tomorrow but again the only way to compare the two is by examining the number of National Merit finalist, the percentage of graduates accepted to and enrolling in college, and the number of those students who receive financial assistance due to academic performance. I would also like to examine the average SAT and ACT scores between the two. I will get my hands on that tomorrow.

No, provide information in the same format as you wish to take down the public schools about. Where are the state test scores for private schools in Kentucky vs. the rest of USA. What are the test scores for each private high school in the state of Kentucky. The public schools has it out there, loud and clear, with all the students, Special needs and all being tested. Now, can you put the scores up or not?

tigershark, they are at least posting links, I have yet to see anything to back up the claims that the privates have better scores.

That is because none exist!

Did you read at the bottom of the page describing the data in the sited tables. They have nothing at all to do with test scores. This is an economic research site that examines the quality of education with economic factors.

This coming from the same person who said there is more to test scores in education. That is why us dumb public school supporters do not understand the private schools?!

I've never won a debate calling my adversary arrogant. If the tactic has worked for you in the past, then why fix what's not broken?

Glad you see it my way. Thanks for making it quite easy.

Like I said you just wouldn’t understand, the private schools in Kentucky are having success in both their academic endeavors and on the athletic fields, and a good number of Public School Supporters have given up tiring to compete so they have voted to eliminate their competition. That is a wonderful lesson for the children in those schools, when the going gets tough, just give up and change the rules, take the easy way out.

OK, now name the source for the great private school test scores.

Arrogance describes the public school officials who constantly look for scapegoats to explain poor academic and athletic performance .

 

Arrogance is seeing many parents paying twice for their children's eduction through taxation and tuition and assuming that private schools must be guilty of some sort of misconduct to attract student athletes.

 

Arrogance is seeking to lower standards to make students, parents, and athletes feel good about themselves by excluding top teams from competition.

 

Arrogance is public school administrators' failure to see improvement of the schools for which they are responsible as the proper means to level the playing field in high school sports.

 

There are some excellent public schools in Kentucky and they successfully compete with like-sized private schools in every area. People in charge of public schools should focus on replicating their success instead of placing an unfair burden on private schools, whose supporters are also supporting the public school system in this state.

So to be consistent with the comments of Tigershark, maybe I should just reply you do not get it. Maybe just hold an opinion that you are biased in your observation and really not qualified to hold judgement. No, my friend, you are entitled to your opinion, but in this case, the arrogance is the assumption one does not understand a fairly simple, narrow view point as shown by Tigershark.

quoted this exact following statement:

 

"The public schools, for such lunacy, have no tradition and no pride and they have dumbed down the curriculum………….so why stop there? If you can’t compete in the classroom or the playing field, change the rules and you won’t have to compete. Just instill mediocrity. But at least the teachers and administrators won’t have to do anything except draw a paycheck paid by our tax money."

Your friend is a moron.

I think overall are public school education is below average in the state. You can talk hard work and troubles. But numbers don't lie and there are other area's across the country who have harder conditions but still seem to do better than ky.

 

I think in general the schools who seem to succeed more in public schools are the one's with open school distritcts. I.E. the Highlands and JCPS of the world.

Highlands is an open school district? They accept anyone and everyone who applies? How much you want to bet?

You have to look at the big picture when comparing public and private schools. It is not just the academic aspect of the school, most public schools are close to if not stronger than a good number of the private schools in Louisville with the exception of St. X. It is the spiritual and community aspect of catholic education that separates the two. Those benefits of private schools are not going to show up on test scores, and I would not expect most public school supporters to understand their importance. But when asking the question why are these private school so successful in everything they do, you have to consider these qualities to see the big picture.

Pure arrogance!

I also agree with Frances statement. My kids go to public schools and while I am not gonna brag, I would put their test scores with any of the privates. While I can usually understand that somtimes people get upset, the original post shows just how uneducated the person that was quoted was. Jesse James :fight:

Perhaps those who claim exceptional testing results from private schools can share or link to any site that reports these scores. I will await to hear or read these results.

45th or 50th, When it comes to Education, Kentucky is one of the worst states in the country across the board. Not even close to the national average. Yes the State is getting better, but we have a long way to go.

I have been trying to stay out of this.

Tigershark, quote your testing source to make this rank claim.

It is still my belief that the private schools located near the state border (northern Kentucky schools, Louisville schools, Rose Hill in Ashland, and a number of others) would be much better served to leave the KHSAA to the publics and make schedules with the many, many fine schools in neighboring states. The competition would actually be a step up and recruiting, which is done by the publics as much as by the privates in Kentucky, would not present a problem. The privates would do well and the publics could have version of state championships.

By the way, Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language indicates that the primary definition of "impotent" is: "not potent; lacking power or ability". The definition which brought on the junior high responses of a couple of posters is actually listed as definition number 5. Thus, my reference was correct.

The weakness of your point is EVERYONE that is responsible for parochial school athletic decisions are aware of this option and NONE wish to explore it. Perhaps you need to understand why they do not embrace the idea.

There must be something to it. If it was all wrong and stupid then the private schools have a position of strength. Why even deal with it. Does anyone listen to what is being said. To all the private school posters. ONE OF YOUR OWN board appointments - Bob Schneider of NCC made it very clear "There is a problem and I thought this was being addressed but the effort is now really organized".

If this was just a waste of time and/or just whining, can anyone on this board who knows Coach Schneider to any degree suggest he would not say as much and quite loud?

UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...........OK........

 

Let me answer this the best I can. Unlike what you seem to believe atleast at Holy Cross they did not simply kick a bad egg to the curb. At HC we recieved more than are fair share of bad apples. But its almost as if the school takes pride in teaching them. I know many kids who got kicked out of other school or left other schools as bad eggs. (CCH,Holmes,) and came to Holy Cross got diploma and are now living pretty good lives.

 

Have kids been kicked out of HC , yes they have. But unless they commit some serious offense or are multiple times offenders HC has a reputation from teaching from within. I'm not familar with the guidelines, but right now in the conversation I was having with LABS that is just making more excuses.

 

Poor public schools have to deal with this that and the kitchen sink. Instead of giving up on kids saying they don't have certain values, here's an idea instill them.

I wonder if your keen motive for vouchers would include the REQUIREMENT to educate the student, EVEN IF YOU EXPEL. Try pricing that service.

Also, if they have an IEP from a dianosis you cannot expel. Try dealing with that.

Give me an example of the violated rule? I have never known a student to get kicked out on first offense.

Gross physical assault. or possession of a narcotic.

I don't buy it. This might be an argument in NYC. But in Covington alot of students at Holmes walk to school. I see it everyday. HolyCross is no more than 3/4th a mile to a mile past Holmes. The could take Tank or walk the extra length. Again a city like Covington Vouchers would work. To say they don't have middle class values is a cop out. That is why they need to instilled these values and idea's. Evidently the system they are in now is not working in doing so, so I do not see how a change in scenery could be any worse.

This will be fun....

OK...

So, if a student takes a voucher to HC and is diagnosed with a disability that falls under the IDEA guidelines and with his own IEP, would HC have the simple right to expell him/her if they grossly violated HC rules?

What the public schools really need is competition. Let all parents have a choice as to where they can send their children. The vast majority of public school kids have to go to the school that their district dictates. It's a monopoly. If parents had vouchers that were good at any school or charter schools where the parents called the shots, you would then see some improvement in public education. Give families a sense of ownership and involvement and they appreciate what they have more and work harder to better it.

 

It would take years to overcome the status quo, but it could be done. Just look at the american auto industry. 40 years ago they were producing junk and we were buying cars at fast as we could, with no questions asked. Then we got introduced to Japanese quality during the oil embargo and Detroit almost went out of business. But they didn't, they changed and became better. I used to drive imported cars but now I own 3 vehicles made in Detroit.

 

Parents just have to demand change and work to get it.

How about we give latitude to all schools to decide their outcome and free them to deal with the malcontents of society? By the way, parents have all the choice in the world to send kids where ever they want.

It would be the best TV since the Campbell County board of education fired Sullivan on live TV. :banana:

Which sullivan?

At least HC doesn't have to pay anything to use Holmes's field for their usage.

Ever heard of fundraisers?

OK, Big Stud explain how this is against Holy Cross. Frankly, this is a huge gift and anything less than thanks, well..

FREE MONEY

To be spent any way they wish, Right?!

:thumb: :thumb:

 

The antimosty from Covington public school is becoming more apparent the more this issue drags on. Holmes has had a clear cut advantage over its Lationia counterpart for as long as I can remeber I have no clue where there negative outlook comes from.

So, the comments by the Covington Superintendent Moreland to NOT support Prop #20 is somehow anti private - how? :creepy: :lol:

Is it just possible there is a little "us vs. them" mentality in anything being proposed? For instance, this debate continues to center around how it would impact the private school world, but some of these proposals can clearly be labeled the "highlands/mitchell" proposals.

Do you think that this proposal is the best for ALL students in ALL schools statewide? Or, do you think this is the best solution for ALL studentis in PUBLIC schools statewide? I fail to see how this proposal is at all fair to PRIVATE schools statewide.

I take it to mean Prop. 20?

If that is the case, no. It is not the best solution or the answer. But, it is the result of frustration and anger. Say what we all will on this site, the most interesting point made to date is NCC Coach Schneider - a private school representative said "Something needs to be done and working towards that.." but not Prop 20.

Failure to understand the position of the vast majority of members is not a very smart thing to do. Agree or disagree, the vast majority of members in KHSAA is public schools. There will be changes in rules. I do not think it will be Prop 20, but prop 20 will get darn near 50% of the vote.

I think residency rules and transfer rules will be the ongoing debate and rule change proposals for the next couple of years and there will be changes. My opinion, State residency rule will pass all levels.