December 3, 200916 yr Author I never claimed that the Silva who fought Tito was the same Silva who fought in Pride. First of all, Pride rules were different than UFC rules so that changed some things. With that said, Silva was still a very tough opponent. If you don't agree with that, you are kidding yourself. I'll give you the Belfort/Couture eye cut. But Belfort still had big wins over Wanderlei Silva, and Heath Herring. And I'm still not saying that Tito is an elite fighter now. But at one point he was a top 5 fighter. Before the evolution of MMA started. Now he might not be top 15. Yeah, I'm sure the rules, and not a new direction in training had everything to do with making Wanderlia Silva who he was. From what I saw of Oriz/Silva, he layed on top of him for 3 rounds. Heath Herring huh? That's something. You're kidding yourself if you think Ortiz was ever an elite fighter. Much like Rich Franklin, he fought in the light heavyweight division when it was extremely weak. He ran from Liddel the entrie time he was champion, and no wonder. If Franklin isn't on the list, then no way Ortiz should be. You're kidding yourself if you don't think that I'm going to throw in "you're kidding yourself" into every post throughout this conversatoin.
December 3, 200916 yr You're kidding yourself if you don't think that I'm going to throw in "you're kidding yourself" into every post throughout this conversatoin. You're kidding yourself about that...I'll never let that happen! Just kidding...
December 3, 200916 yr Yeah, I'm sure the rules, and not a new direction in training had everything to do with making Wanderlia Silva who he was. From what I saw of Oriz/Silva, he layed on top of him for 3 rounds. Heath Herring huh? That's something. You're kidding yourself if you think Ortiz was ever an elite fighter. Much like Rich Franklin, he fought in the light heavyweight division when it was extremely weak. He ran from Liddel the entrie time he was champion, and no wonder. If Franklin isn't on the list, then no way Ortiz should be. You must have watched a different Silva/Ortiz fight because it lasted 5 rounds, as far as I know. I could be wrong. And if you can name a lot of fighters that were clearly better than Tito during his run, I'll agree with you. I can think of a couple, Couture and Liddell, but that's about it. Say his division was weak all you want, but the fact of the matter is he was ELITE in his division at that time.
December 7, 200916 yr Author You must have watched a different Silva/Ortiz fight because it lasted 5 rounds, as far as I know. I could be wrong. And if you can name a lot of fighters that were clearly better than Tito during his run, I'll agree with you. I can think of a couple, Couture and Liddell, but that's about it. Say his division was weak all you want, but the fact of the matter is he was ELITE in his division at that time. My mistake, he layed on him for 5 rounds then. Absolutely no fact at all that he was ever elite. That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it.
December 7, 200916 yr My mistake, he layed on him for 5 rounds then. Absolutely no fact at all that he was ever elite. That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. If he wasn't elite in his division at the time, who was?
December 7, 200916 yr Author If he wasn't elite in his division at the time, who was? In my opinion, if he was an elite fighter, he would have had to defeat other elite fighters. Yes, he beat Wanderlia Silva before Silva became an elite fighter. He beat Shamrock, who had no business fighting anyone at that time, and he beat Vitor Belfort, who's lost every big fight he's ever been in. That resume does not make you an elite fighter in my opinion. When Ortiz fights guys that are elite, he gets destroyed, ala Chuck Liddel and Randy Couture. If you think Ortiz deserves to be recognized as an elite fighter than that's your prerogative. I on the other hand, do not. It appears that we will have to agree to disagree.
December 7, 200916 yr In my opinion, if he was an elite fighter, he would have had to defeat other elite fighters. Yes, he beat Wanderlia Silva before Silva became an elite fighter. He beat Shamrock, who had no business fighting anyone at that time, and he beat Vitor Belfort, who's lost every big fight he's ever been in. That resume does not make you an elite fighter in my opinion. When Ortiz fights guys that are elite, he gets destroyed, ala Chuck Liddel and Randy Couture. If you think Ortiz deserves to be recognized as an elite fighter than that's your prerogative. I on the other hand, do not. It appears that we will have to agree to disagree. You didn't really answer my question. During his title run, what fighters do you consider elite in his weight class?
December 7, 200916 yr And considering Vitor has wins over Matt Linland, Rich Franklin and Wanderlei Silva, I doubt he's lost every big fight he's ever been in.
December 7, 200916 yr As for your argument that Wanderlei wasn't the "Axe Murderer" at the time he fought Tito, that's a little hard to prove. Let's take a look at his record starting 5 fights before his match with Tito, and going 19-20 fights after his fight with Tito. Win Quinton Jackson KO (Knees) PRIDE 28 - High Octane 10/31/2004 2 3:26 Win Yuki Kondo KO (Stomps) PRIDE - Final Conflict 2004 8/15/2004 1 2:46 Win Ikuhisa Minowa KO (Punches) PRIDE - Bushido 2 2/15/2004 1 1:09 Win Quinton Jackson TKO (Knees) PRIDE - Final Conflict 2003 11/9/2003 1 6:28 Win Hidehiko Yoshida Decision (Unanimous) PRIDE - Final Conflict 2003 11/9/2003 2 5:00 Win Kazushi Sakuraba KO (Punch) PRIDE - Total Elimination 2003 8/10/2003 1 5:01 Win Hiromitsu Kanehara TKO (Towel) PRIDE 23 - Championship Chaos 2 11/24/2002 1 3:40 Win Tatsuya Iwasaki TKO (Strikes) PRIDE - Shockwave 8/28/2002 1 1:16 Draw Mirko Filipovic Draw PRIDE 20 - Armed and Ready 4/28/2002 5 3:00 Win Kiyoshi Tamura KO (Punch) PRIDE 19 - Bad Blood 2/24/2002 2 2:28 Win Alexander Otsuka TKO (Doctor Stoppage) PRIDE 18 - Cold Fury 2 12/23/2001 3 2:22 Win Kazushi Sakuraba TKO (Doctor Stoppage) PRIDE 17 - Championship Chaos 11/3/2001 1 10:00 Win Shungo Oyama TKO (Punches) PRIDE 14 - Clash of the Titans 5/27/2001 1 0:30 Win Kazushi Sakuraba TKO (Strikes) PRIDE 13 - Collision Course 3/25/2001 1 1:38 Win Dan Henderson Decision (Unanimous) PRIDE 12 - Cold Fury 12/9/2000 3 5:00 NC Gilbert Yvel No Contest - Yvel Kicked in Groin PRIDE 11 - Battle of the Rising Sun 10/31/2000 1 0:21 Win Guy Mezger KO (Punches) PRIDE 10 - Return of the Warriors 8/27/2000 1 3:45 Win Todd Medina KO (Knees) Meca 2 - Meca World Vale Tudo 2 8/12/2000 1 0:39 Loss Tito Ortiz Decision (Unanimous) UFC 25 - Ultimate Japan 3 4/14/2000 5 5:00 Win Bob Schrijber Submission (Rear Naked Choke) PRIDE Grand Prix 2000 - Opening Round 1/30/2000 1 2:42 Win Daijiro Matsui Decision PRIDE 8 - PRIDE 8 11/21/1999 2 10:00 Win Carl Greco Decision (Unanimous) PRIDE 7 - PRIDE 7 9/12/1999 2 10:00 Win Tony Petarra KO (Knee to the Head) UFC 20 - Battle for the Gold 5/7/1999 1 2:53 20 wins, 1 loss, 1 NC, and 1 draw in those fights. The 1 loss out of the 23 fights I've mentioned was to who? Tito Ortiz. Wanderlei was young and very good when Tito beat him. He beat Dan Henderson later that same year in Pride.
December 7, 200916 yr I think Tito would have to be considered elite during his peak. However, I don't think anyone would argue that the UFC is much better now, and has been for several years, than it was during Tito's reign. So, the real question is does being elite when the UFC was much inferior to the current product warrant Tito being a top 10 fighter for the decade? Especially, when you consider how he struggled once the talent pool was improved, while his contemporaries, Liddell and Couture, continued to perform at the same level, if not a higher level. I say no. I do not believe Tito Ortiz deserves to be considerd a top 15 fighter of the decade, much less top 10.
December 7, 200916 yr Author I think Tito would have to be considered elite during his peak. However, I don't think anyone would argue that the UFC is much better now, and has been for several years, than it was during Tito's reign. So, the real question is does being elite when the UFC was much inferior to the current product warrant Tito being a top 10 fighter for the decade? Especially, when you consider how he struggled once the talent pool was improved, while his contemporaries, Liddell and Couture, continued to perform at the same level, if not a higher level. I say no. I do not believe Tito Ortiz deserves to be considerd a top 15 fighter of the decade, much less top 10. :thumb: That's exactly what I was trying to say.
December 7, 200916 yr Author You didn't really answer my question. During his title run, what fighters do you consider elite in his weight class? I answered that question at the beginning of the thread. There were no elite fighters in his class during his reign, minus Liddel and Couture. What happened during those fights? Tito didn't look like an elite fighter to me, did he you?
December 7, 200916 yr Author As for your argument that Wanderlei wasn't the "Axe Murderer" at the time he fought Tito, that's a little hard to prove. Let's take a look at his record starting 5 fights before his match with Tito, and going 19-20 fights after his fight with Tito. 20 wins, 1 loss, 1 NC, and 1 draw in those fights. The 1 loss out of the 23 fights I've mentioned was to who? Tito Ortiz. Wanderlei was young and very good when Tito beat him. He beat Dan Henderson later that same year in Pride. :thumb: If you think Silva was as good during his prime than he was in Tito fought him, then I don't think there's any need to carry this conversation any further. Sure he beat Dan Henderson later that year. Do you not think fighters can improve tremendously in as little as 6 months, or have you forgotten that the great Tito lost to Frank Shamrock, a guy he outweighed by close to 30 pounds, just 6 months prior to defeating Silva. What's that say about Tito and Silva at the time?
December 7, 200916 yr Author And considering Vitor has wins over Matt Linland, Rich Franklin and Wanderlei Silva, I doubt he's lost every big fight he's ever been in. WOW!
December 7, 200916 yr :thumb: That's exactly what I was trying to say. So in essence, you were agreeing with me that Tito was elite during his title run? Because that's what I've been saying.
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