I would like for one of you to explain the horse collar penalty please. There were three called last night in our game against Letcher Co. Central, two on us and one on them. I really in all honesty did not see the one called on LCC, so I cannot comment on it. I did see the two called on the Bears as they were right on the sideline where I was sitting. Anyone...:confused:

9-4-3: No player or nonplayer shall:

k. Grab the inside back or side collar of the shoulder pads or jersey of the runner and subsequently pull the runner to the ground (Horse-collar tackle).

 

PENALTY: Illegal horse-collar tackle (Art. 3k) - (S38, S25) - 15 yards.

 

 

Now in Ky the interpretation is that the tackle must pull the ball carry backwards.

The Key to that rule and intrepretation that our crew uses is "subsequently pull the runner to the ground plus we look to see if the runner's knees buckle, if so in our judgment that is a horse collar. Hope that helps.

I have one...When spotting the ball, it seems, in MANY cases, that the refs just look to be within a yard or two of where it should be.

 

Also, when "stepping" off a penalty, why not use those cute little "ACCURATE" white lines that are so painstakingly painted on the field instead of counting on the paces of every ref in the universe being the same. A five yard penalty should be five yards, not 4.5 - 6.5.

Thanks for answering my question guys. Ok, not to nit-pick here, but as far as the jersey goes - does that mean the inside back or collar of the jersey...or the jersey period?

 

#1. On the first one called on us, our player grabbed the back of the jersey in the middle of his back, probably between the shoulder blades or a tad lower...NOT the collar or the jersey or the undergear/shoulder pads at all...just the jersey.

 

#2. On the other one, our player did grab the back collar of the jersey with his left hand and the "sleeve" of the shoulder pad that hangs over the arm and pulled him down. My son was the one that did this one and I got him to show me exactly where he grabbed the other player. With the rule stated above, I would now agree with this one being a horse collar because he did pull the collar of the jersey, but what about scenario #1?

Thanks for answering my question guys. Ok, not to nit-pick here, but as far as the jersey goes - does that mean the inside back or collar of the jersey...or the jersey period?

 

#1. On the first one called on us, our player grabbed the back of the jersey in the middle of his back, probably between the shoulder blades or a tad lower...NOT the collar or the jersey or the undergear/shoulder pads at all...just the jersey.

 

#2. On the other one, our player did grab the back collar of the jersey with his left hand and the "sleeve" of the shoulder pad that hangs over the arm and pulled him down. My son was the one that did this one and I got him to show me exactly where he grabbed the other player. With the rule stated above, I would now agree with this one being a horse collar because he did pull the collar of the jersey, but what about scenario #1?

 

Great question, Understand that what I say now, has no bearing on what happened last night. That being said, if the tackler pulled the runner down by the back of the jersey, and the runner's knee's buckled, then it was in my opinion a horse collar. Remember this penatly is to protect the runner. As an official we are trying to protect players from injury.

I have one...When spotting the ball, it seems, in MANY cases, that the refs just look to be within a yard or two of where it should be.

 

Also, when "stepping" off a penalty, why not use those cute little "ACCURATE" white lines that are so painstakingly painted on the field instead of counting on the paces of every ref in the universe being the same. A five yard penalty should be five yards, not 4.5 - 6.5.

 

That maybe how it appears from the stands, but we are trying to get the spot as close as to where the runner was down at.

 

As for the penalty, unless you are playing on a turf field, those "cute little "ACCURATE white lines that are so painstakingly painted on the field are not always so "ACCURATE". So we have to step it off. For example, the 3 yard line for extra points, have been anywhere form 2.5 to 2.75 yards from the goal line, not the 3 yard line. That is one reason why officials walk the field before to see if those "ACCURATE" white lines are "ACCURATE".

Great question, Understand that what I say now, has no bearing on what happened last night. That being said, if the tackler pulled the runner down by the back of the jersey, and the runner's knee's buckled, then it was in my opinion a horse collar. Remember this penatly is to protect the runner. As an official we are trying to protect players from injury.

 

Come on now....lets not interpret the wording of the rule. The rule is the rule...

 

9-4-3: No player or nonplayer shall:

k. Grab the inside back or side collar of the shoulder pads or jersey of the runner and subsequently pull the runner to the ground (Horse-collar tackle).

 

Also, the rule doesn't have the word knees anywhere in it.

Come on now....lets not interpret the wording of the rule. The rule is the rule...

 

9-4-3: No player or nonplayer shall:

k. Grab the inside back or side collar of the shoulder pads or jersey of the runner and subsequently pull the runner to the ground (Horse-collar tackle).

 

Also, the rule doesn't have the word knees anywhere in it.

 

I didn't say the word knees was in the rule.

That maybe how it appears from the stands, but we are trying to get the spot as close as to where the runner was down at.

 

As for the penalty, unless you are playing on a turf field, those "cute little "ACCURATE white lines that are so painstakingly painted on the field are not always so "ACCURATE". So we have to step it off. For example, the 3 yard line for extra points, have been anywhere form 2.5 to 2.75 yards from the goal line, not the 3 yard line. That is one reason why officials walk the field before to see if those "ACCURATE" white lines are "ACCURATE".

 

It's not MAYBE how it appears from the stands, it is how it is. As for the walking the field to check the hash marks, or stepping off three yards for the extra point line, unless you have a tape measure, you are not going to be any more accurate than the guys that line the field.

 

First of all, I don't want to become an official. I know the job is very difficult and it is done by people that care. Nobody is going to be perfect, and I don't expect that. However, when ball placement, especially on penalties, can be nearly perfect use the tools you have. I will readily admit that it is frequently difficult to know the exact spot to place the ball after a play.

 

With that said, it is important to say that the mostly volunteer grounds crews take great pride in their teams home field. Since there would be nothing to lose or gain by mis-marking the field, I am sure none of them consiously do it.

 

Most games I watch are on turf fields. Most walk offs on penalties are wrong, usually by not more than a foot, but they are wrong. If the has marks are inaccurate, it won't be by much or the whole field would be screwed up. Both teams are on the same field and it would not make any difference if the hash marks were used.

 

As for spotting the ball, last night after a touch back, the ball was placed on the 20 as it should have been. On second or third down, the runner was tackled between the 29 and 30, in the center of the field. NO part of the ball or player reached the 30. The side judge ran toward the hash, between the 29 and 30. The white hat came from the backfield placed the ball on the 30 and signaled 1st down.

 

Five yard penalty last night on turf. The tip of the ball was just barely touching the defenses 31 yard line. White hat steps it of, ignoring the EXTREMELY accurate hash marks and places the ball squarely between the 26 and 27 yard lines, a 4.5 yard penalty.

 

In both cases, the spots, by the officials had absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the game. That doesn't matter.

 

A couple of weeks ago, I attended a game that was played on turf. I was sitting with some fans from the opposing team. From about the middle of the 1st quarter on, everyone was laughing at the spots that BOTH teams were getting. We thought it was funny that wherever a player was brought down, placement of the tip of the ball was ALWAYS, barely touching the edge of the hash past where the play was blown down.

 

Sorry this post was so long, it comes from knowing Leatherneck too long. Again, I appreciate what all of the officials do, more for the love of the game than the money.

72Birdman - I appreciate your post. I can only speak for my crew. That we strive in getting everything right. For two basic reasons. #1 what we do, we do because we love the kids and we love the game. #2 we don't want to determine the outcome of the game, we want the players to do that, so we want each spot and each penatly to be correct. That being said, we have worked one game in our history on turf. For us, that game was the easiest we had worked. Simply because we were not guessing with regards to the hash marks.

 

I agree that the men who take care of their teams home field do it with pride. But it's quite obvious at some places we have been when the side line marks are not equal with those on the middle of the field. That does make it a guessing game at times.

72Birdman - I appreciate your post. I can only speak for my crew. That we strive in getting everything right. For two basic reasons. #1 what we do, we do because we love the kids and we love the game. #2 we don't want to determine the outcome of the game, we want the players to do that, so we want each spot and each penatly to be correct. That being said, we have worked one game in our history on turf. For us, that game was the easiest we had worked. Simply because we were not guessing with regards to the hash marks.

 

I agree that the men who take care of their teams home field do it with pride. But it's quite obvious at some places we have been when the side line marks are not equal with those on the middle of the field. That does make it a guessing game at times.

 

Over all I think the refs do a great job. My question is, a running back crossed the goal line then was horse collard after the fact. There was no penalty called, ( it was clearly a horse collar), why do you think it wasn't called? Did they miss the call or did they not call it because the play was over for a TD?

Trust me, just cause there are lines on the field does not mean they are right. I know of fields where our steps are much more accurate than those lines. Also, if fans pay attention, you probably will see that most crews spot the ball on a line every play. If it is close on downs we will not but always on a first down(they teach us this at clinics)!!

Over all I think the refs do a great job. My question is, a running back crossed the goal line then was horse collard after the fact. There was no penalty called, ( it was clearly a horse collar), why do you think it wasn't called? Did they miss the call or did they not call it because the play was over for a TD?

 

Another question , I've been to two games at the same school and the chain gang has not come on the field for a measurement,and their was many times it was close to a first down. Is there a reason they don't measure for first downs anymore?

When you start on a line or hash you know you have to make the spot 10 yards away. If you make the line, first down!