If Pete isn't in then Roger shouldn't be in.

 

Both did something that is banned in baseball...regardless of the other. Neither deserve to be in.

^ Agreed

Whatever happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty. Heck, Bonds hasn't exactly been PROVEN guilty of this. They were hall of famers before the "steroid era" and they should still be.

Whatever happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty. Heck, Bonds hasn't exactly been PROVEN guilty of this. They were hall of famers before the "steroid era" and they should still be.

 

If they change the HOF vote to 12 jurors, you're right. Otherwise.....

If they change the HOF vote to 12 jurors, you're right. Otherwise.....

 

Why do people believe McNamee more than Clemens? Obviously one of them is lying but whose to say its not that McNamee character. As for the HOF, baseball has self-labeled the so called "steroid era." That tells me that there were plenty of people using them. IMO, more than people want to believe. I'd be willing to bet team owners, even MLB officials knew this was going on, but did nothing about it. Since the playing field was still basically level it shouldn't take away their accomplishments. Obviously ther were some players out there who were clean, but they were in the minority. You can't descriminate against the best players of the era without doing the same to others. Meaning no one that played in the era should be allowed into the HOF (Including players like Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux). It's either that or let the deserving in, unless there is rock hard evidence they were using.

Why do people believe McNamee more than Clemens? Obviously one of them is lying but whose to say its not that McNamee character. As for the HOF, baseball has self-labeled the so called "steroid era." That tells me that there were plenty of people using them. IMO, more than people want to believe. I'd be willing to bet team owners, even MLB officials knew this was going on, but did nothing about it. Since the playing field was still basically level it shouldn't take away their accomplishments. Obviously ther were some players out there who were clean, but they were in the minority. You can't descriminate against the best players of the era without doing the same to others. Meaning no one that played in the era should be allowed into the HOF (Including players like Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux). It's either that or let the deserving in, unless there is rock hard evidence they were using.

 

Many people believe McNamee because of the odds. What are the odds that a MLB pitcher can have the resurgence that RC had at, by pitching standards, an old age?

 

Do you know of people associated with steroids that have been elected into the HOF? I don't.

 

I don't buy the argument that you can't let anyone in . I don't even see the logic.

 

Do you believe Brady Anderson took steroids?

Many people believe McNamee because of the odds. What are the odds that a MLB pitcher can have the resurgence that RC had at, by pitching standards, an old age?

 

Do you know of people associated with steroids that have been elected into the HOF? I don't.

 

I don't buy the argument that you can't let anyone in . I don't even see the logic.

 

Do you believe Brady Anderson took steroids?

 

Whose to say Randy Johnson or Greg Maddux didn't use performance enhancing drugs to help them recover quicker at their old age?

 

No one from the "steroid era" has really even been on the ballot yet.

 

I could care less if Brady Anderson took steroids at the time everyone else was using them. I'm sure he was. How about Roger Maris, did he use steroids in 1961?

Why do people believe McNamee more than Clemens? Obviously one of them is lying but whose to say its not that McNamee character. As for the HOF, baseball has self-labeled the so called "steroid era." That tells me that there were plenty of people using them. IMO, more than people want to believe. I'd be willing to bet team owners, even MLB officials knew this was going on, but did nothing about it. Since the playing field was still basically level it shouldn't take away their accomplishments. Obviously ther were some players out there who were clean, but they were in the minority. You can't descriminate against the best players of the era without doing the same to others. Meaning no one that played in the era should be allowed into the HOF (Including players like Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux). It's either that or let the deserving in, unless there is rock hard evidence they were using.

 

Interesting that McNamee also claimed that Andy Pettite used steroids and everyone (including Pettite) initially said "no way." Of course, turns out that he did use them. Interesting that McNamee says he injected Clemens' wife and they initially denied this claim, but turns out he did. Interesting that during Clemens' taped telephone call with McNamee, he never once had the guts to come directly out on tape and say, "You know I never did steroids." Clemens did steroids. Heck, just look at his balloon-sized head. And then to make matters worse he swore under oath to tell the truth and did exactly the opposite. The man lacks character.

 

The fact that there were some other players who also cheated by knowingly taking illegal substances is irrelevent. What - because others also broke the rules somehow makes it less wrong? Show me a story in which someone - anyone - claimed that Maddux or Johnson or Griffey or lots of other top-tier players used these substances. There were many superstar-caliber players who didn't have to resort to cheating. The "clean" players were most certainly NOT in the minority and to think otherwise is naive. The ones in the minority were the ones who sought out an unfair competitive advantage over their peers by using banned substances. The "steroid age" in no way, shape, or form implies that everyone in the league was using these substances. Those that did don't deserve the honor to be enshrined in the HOF.

Edited December 12, 200817 yr by cooperstown

Whose to say Randy Johnson or Greg Maddux didn't use performance enhancing drugs to help them recover quicker at their old age?

 

No one from the "steroid era" has really even been on the ballot yet.

 

I could care less if Brady Anderson took steroids at the time everyone else was using them. I'm sure he was. How about Roger Maris, did he use steroids in 1961?

 

You're asking voters to simply ignore what seems obvious to many. Will they miss out on some others that took roids but weren't as obvious? That doesn't mean we ignore the obvious. Bonds - obvious. Clemens - pretty darn questionable BEFORE McNamee - now highly doubtful he was without aid of some sort. Palmerio? Obvious. Sosa? Obvious. Big Mac? Yes.

 

Anyone that is highly questionable or obvious is not going to get enough votes and I'm cool with that.

 

I also don't buy into "the HOF is filled with bad guys" thinking. If they were bad because of drinking or womanizing or anything other than gambling on baseball or doing something illegal to increase performance, its not the same thing. By all accounts, Ty Cobb was a racist punk. However, he was also one of the greatest hitters of all time who no one has claimed nor was it suspected that he was a cheater. Would I want him as a dinner guest? No. HOF? Absolutely.

 

Voters vote on what they see. Maddux and RJ have zero suspicions of cheating. They get in. The others while not proven in a court of law are suspicious and, thus, won't get the votes.

You're asking voters to simply ignore what seems obvious to many. Will they miss out on some others that took roids but weren't as obvious? That doesn't mean we ignore the obvious. Bonds - obvious. Clemens - pretty darn questionable BEFORE McNamee - now highly doubtful he was without aid of some sort. Palmerio? Obvious. Sosa? Obvious. Big Mac? Yes.

 

Anyone that is highly questionable or obvious is not going to get enough votes and I'm cool with that.

 

I also don't buy into "the HOF is filled with bad guys" thinking. If they were bad because of drinking or womanizing or anything other than gambling on baseball or doing something illegal to increase performance, its not the same thing. By all accounts, Ty Cobb was a racist punk. However, he was also one of the greatest hitters of all time who no one has claimed nor was it suspected that he was a cheater. Would I want him as a dinner guest? No. HOF? Absolutely.

 

Voters vote on what they see. Maddux and RJ have zero suspicions of cheating. They get in. The others while not proven in a court of law are suspicious and, thus, won't get the votes.

 

Blasphemy!!! You're freakin nuts...

 

As for the thread. Might as well let them all in at this point...

You're asking voters to simply ignore what seems obvious to many. Will they miss out on some others that took roids but weren't as obvious? That doesn't mean we ignore the obvious. Bonds - obvious. Clemens - pretty darn questionable BEFORE McNamee - now highly doubtful he was without aid of some sort. Palmerio? Obvious. Sosa? Obvious. Big Mac? Yes.

 

Anyone that is highly questionable or obvious is not going to get enough votes and I'm cool with that.

 

I also don't buy into "the HOF is filled with bad guys" thinking. If they were bad because of drinking or womanizing or anything other than gambling on baseball or doing something illegal to increase performance, its not the same thing. By all accounts, Ty Cobb was a racist punk. However, he was also one of the greatest hitters of all time who no one has claimed nor was it suspected that he was a cheater. Would I want him as a dinner guest? No. HOF? Absolutely.

 

Voters vote on what they see. Maddux and RJ have zero suspicions of cheating. They get in. The others while not proven in a court of law are suspicious and, thus, won't get the votes.

 

You make some good points...just trying to bring the other side into the conversation.

Blasphemy!!! You're freakin nuts...

 

As for the thread. Might as well let them all in at this point...

 

Nah. There's not really all that many high-profile, potential HOF-worthy players who are/were under suspicion. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater . . . .

Here's something to think about

 

"Everyone in the game has been hoping the lie could last as long as possible. They wanted steroids in the game to make it more exciting, hoping they would be able to build its popularity back up after the disastrous Cancellation of the 1994 World Series. So when I taught other players how to use steroids, no one lifted a finger to stop me. When I educated trainers and others on how to inject players with steroids, there was nothing standing in my way. Directly or indirectly, nearly everyone is baseball was complicit"

 

From Juiced

 

Canseco has been honest about everything from the beginning. Atleast it seems that way. Sure sounds like someone could have stopped it if they wanted.

Here's something to think about

 

"Everyone in the game has been hoping the lie could last as long as possible. They wanted steroids in the game to make it more exciting, hoping they would be able to build its popularity back up after the disastrous Cancellation of the 1994 World Series. So when I taught other players how to use steroids, no one lifted a finger to stop me. When I educated trainers and others on how to inject players with steroids, there was nothing standing in my way. Directly or indirectly, nearly everyone is baseball was complicit"

 

From Juiced

 

Canseco has been honest about everything from the beginning. Atleast it seems that way. Sure sounds like someone could have stopped it if they wanted.

 

 

While much of what Canseco said was undoubtedly the truth and did help open MLB's eyes to the severity of the problem, don't also forget that he was selling a book. Things can tend to get exaggerated when the desire is to increase sales and reach the top of the bestseller list.

Nah. There's not really all that many high-profile, potential HOF-worthy players who are/were under suspicion. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater . . . .

 

But what happens when you leave a guy like Bonds out and let someone like Maddux in...only to find out Maddux used? Too late at that point...

 

Just using these guys as examples...