August 20, 200818 yr Author Never said anyone was ... I was speaking in general terms. Yes, it does ... Volquez's early numbers were horrible, much worse than those of the "Big 3." That's why he was sent back down multiple times. I didn't know I was assigned that task ... You're also listing guys from back in the 70s and 80s ... if you have to go back that far to name guys, your point is rendered moot. There is still a difference. Glavine, yes ... Maddux, no. My research bears that out. And he is also older than those guys were when he finally established himself as a pitcher. That is also relevant. Maddux's first full season 6-14 5.61 If you weren't aware, that's not very good.
August 20, 200818 yr Maddux's first full season 6-14 5.61 If you weren't aware, that's not very good. I saw Maddux's rookie year ... I know all about it. He was still miles better than Volquez was in his first two turns in the majors. At age 22, Maddux went 18-8 with a 3.18 ERA. At age 22, Volquez's career numbers were 1-10 with a 9.20 ERA. Again, no comparison.
August 20, 200818 yr Author I saw Maddux's rookie year ... I know all about it. He was still miles better than Volquez was in his first two turns in the majors. Now you're just reaching. Out of all the stats I posted in the very first post Cueto is better than Maddux in everything except HR/9. And he's right there with Glavine in almost everything. Even if Volquez may not compare as well, you have to admit that Cueto matches up with them and even surpasses them in a lot of ways.
August 20, 200818 yr Now you're just reaching. Out of all the stats I posted in the very first post Cueto is better than Maddux in everything except HR/9. And he's right there with Glavine in almost everything. Even if Volquez may not compare as well, you have to admit that Cueto matches up with them and even surpasses them in a lot of ways.Who's reaching? Cueto at age 22 is no comparison to Maddux at age 22 ... even you would have to admit that. Then again, maybe you won't ...
August 20, 200818 yr Author Who's reaching? Cueto at age 22 is no comparison to Maddux at age 22 ... even you would have to admit that. Then again, maybe you won't ... You are making way to big a deal over one year. Who knows what Cueto would have done this year if he was in the Bigs all of last season. I guess we'll find that out next year.
August 20, 200818 yr You are making way to big a deal over one year.Not at all ... their performances at the same age aren't even close. Maddux was first in the big leagues at age 20. Cueto came up at 22. There is a difference there, whether you want to admit it or not. If Cueto takes a big leap forward next year, your case gets a little better. For now, no one else is buying the comparison. Lick your wounds and move on ... Edited August 20, 200818 yr by STRIKE3 edited
August 20, 200818 yr Author Not at all ... their performances at the same age aren't even close. Maddux was first in the big leagues at age 20. Cueto came up at 22. There is a difference there, whether you want to admit it or not. And you're the only one having such a problem accepting that I compared the five players. Edited August 20, 200818 yr by STRIKE3 edited
August 20, 200818 yr Enough of the personal jabs. Discuss the topic but take the other comments, to the PM's.
August 20, 200818 yr No one questions the notion that Cueto and Volquez have a chance to be quality pitchers for years to come. But comparing them to three guys likely to make it to the Hall of Fame is a bit too much ... way too much, actually. One advantage that Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz have ... managers and pitching coaches that had an idea of how to develop pitchers. I don't think Volquez and Cueto have that at this point in their careers.
August 20, 200818 yr Author No one questions the notion that Cueto and Volquez have a chance to be quality pitchers for years to come. But comparing them to three guys likely to make it to the Hall of Fame is a bit too much ... way too much, actually. One advantage that Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz have ... managers and pitching coaches that had an idea of how to develop pitchers. I don't think Volquez and Cueto have that at this point in their careers. That's all I've ever said. When comparing players to one another, it just happens that people are always compared to HOFers. That's just how it works. That's why I'd like to see the Reds make a run at Mazzone in the offseason. The Reds have a ton of young pitching talent in Cueto, Volquez, Thompson, Maloney, Bailey, Burton, Bray, even Harang. They just need the right coaching and it's pretty obvious that Pole is not it.
August 20, 200818 yr Who's 27 here? That's what I thought, no one. Just because they were up to stay doesn't mean some of their starts weren't just as bad as Volquez's. Just look at their numbers of their first few starts. Not very impressive if you ask me. You say pitchers aren't kept down longer then they were back then. Yet you still haven't named more than two players who were up and stayed up before age 24. I can name plenty of people back in the 90's that came up at an earlier age. Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine, Pedro, Schilling, Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina, Kevin Appier, Jose Rijo, Jack McDowell, Dennis Eckersly, John Smiley, Ramon Martinez. All those names with very little effort. Today you don't see that as much. Names I can think of today are Cueto, Felix Hernandez, Houston Street, Joba, Jurrjens. thats pretty obvious difference in number off the top of my head. Once again, I'm not trying to compare ages because it doesn't make sence to do that unless there is a bigger age difference as you pointed out like 21 to 27. There's isn't much of an age difference here. Cueto is up to stay at 22 and putting up comparable numbers to what Maddux and Glavine did in their first full seasons at ages 21 and 22. Volquez is showing Cy Young type stuff in his first full season (second season if you want to argue that) which is what all these pitchers have done. You left out quite a few pitchers: Josh Beckett Jon Lester Scott Kazmir Matt Garza Justin Verlander Jeremy Bonderman Zack Grienke C.C. Sabathia Fausto Carmona Francisco Liriano Kevin Slowey Jered Weaver Ervin Santana Joe Blanton Rich Harden Jake Peavy Matt Cain Tim Lincecum Barry Zito Chad Billingsley Dan Haren Carlos Zambrano Ben Sheets Kyle Lohse Roy Oswalt Zach Duke Pat Maholm John Lannan Tim Hudson Scott Olson Cole Hamels Oliver Perez Johan Santana Mike Pelfrey Mark Buehrle John Danks Those guys all were called up before age 24, that's just the starters I found with a quick scan. I'm sure I could find several relievers too. A couple of names on their jump out at me--Zito and Hudson. Cueto and Volquez are much more likely to end up like them than they are Maddux, Glavine or Smoltz. Not that Zito and Hudson have had bad careers, just that they aren't like the Big 3.
August 20, 200818 yr Those guys all were called up before age 24, that's just the starters I found with a quick scan. I'm sure I could find several relievers too. A couple of names on their jump out at me--Zito and Hudson. Cueto and Volquez are much more likely to end up like them than they are Maddux, Glavine or Smoltz. Not that Zito and Hudson have had bad careers, just that they aren't like the Big 3.The original question was guys that were called up at age 20. Then it became guys that were up to stay by age 24. Naturally, that expands the list a great deal.
August 21, 200818 yr Author You left out quite a few pitchers: Josh Beckett Jon Lester Scott Kazmir Matt Garza Justin Verlander Jeremy Bonderman Zack Grienke C.C. Sabathia Fausto Carmona Francisco Liriano Kevin Slowey Jered Weaver Ervin Santana Joe Blanton Rich Harden Jake Peavy Matt Cain Tim Lincecum Barry Zito Chad Billingsley Dan Haren Carlos Zambrano Ben Sheets Kyle Lohse Roy Oswalt Zach Duke Pat Maholm John Lannan Tim Hudson Scott Olson Cole Hamels Oliver Perez Johan Santana Mike Pelfrey Mark Buehrle John Danks Those guys all were called up before age 24, that's just the starters I found with a quick scan. I'm sure I could find several relievers too. A couple of names on their jump out at me--Zito and Hudson. Cueto and Volquez are much more likely to end up like them than they are Maddux, Glavine or Smoltz. Not that Zito and Hudson have had bad careers, just that they aren't like the Big 3. Fair Enough, good research
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