July 31, 200818 yr I find it interesting that everyone seems to think that people who are against abortion should automatically be against the death penalty. I am for the death penalty for heinous crimes. It is biblical. These people chose to commit the horrific crimes they did and if the devalue life so much that they think they can take it from someone else they deserve the same. I am against prolonged appeals that cost the tax payers money, once the verdict has been issued the punishment should come about as quickly as possible. On the other hand . . . the innocent baby in the womb hasn't even been given a chance for life. The comparison is apples and oranges in my opinion. Your previous post said that "we need to protect life." By "we" I assume you mean the law. That was your thesis - you applied it to abortions. I don't disagree. However, you then went on to talk about the protection of life of children, teens, adults, seniors, so you broadened the concept of the "right to life" beyond just fetuses. I agree with that, too. You have stated that you are in favor of the death penalty, which means you therefore favor NOT protecting life in the event someone commits a heinous crime. In essence, you contend that the right to life is worth protecting unless a person forfeits that right by committing a heinous crime. So you admit that a person has the power to consciously choose to do something that would forfeit his own life. The "right to life" has a limit. Since a person has it within their power to consciously do that, I take it that you support a person's right to euthanize himself, commit suicide, or sign a document directing someone else to pull the plug?
July 31, 200818 yr Kentucky and 17 other states recognize fetal homicide for the death of any fetus in utero, from conception forward. Other states have fetal homicide laws that define various stages of pregnancy as being homicide. In 2004, President Bush signed the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which recognizes as a homicide the killing of any fetus in utero from conception forward. It is being challenged as we speak. Ketnucky's version actually has a first, second, third, and fourth degree element to it. They mirror the language from the murder statutes in many respect, substituting "unborn child." First degree fetal homicide is a capital offense; howver, a statute specifically excludes the death penalty as punishment. The statute obviously also excludes abortions as punishable by law. Habib, this might be an interesting separate thread topic. How can you kill what is merely a wad of tissue? Hmm, something doesn't make sense.
July 31, 200818 yr Your previous post said that "we need to protect life." By "we" I assume you mean the law. That was your thesis - you applied it to abortions. I don't disagree. However, you then went on to talk about the protection of life of children, teens, adults, seniors, so you broadened the concept of the "right to life" beyond just fetuses. I agree with that, too. You have stated that you are in favor of the death penalty, which means you therefore favor NOT protecting life in the event someone commits a heinous crime. In essence, you contend that the right to life is worth protecting unless a person forfeits that right by committing a heinous crime. So you admit that a person has the power to consciously choose to do something that would forfeit his own life. The "right to life" has a limit. Since a person has it within their power to consciously do that, I take it that you support a person's right to euthanize himself, commit suicide, or sign a document directing someone else to pull the plug? I am not a lawyer and I won't pretend to know the legal jargon so I will admit that perhaps my semantics may have clouded my post somewhat. For the record, no, I am not in favor of euthanasia directed or otherwise, or suicide for that matter . . .I do realize that this involves choice on the part of the individual . . . and yes their "right to life." No one has the "right" to take a life . . . even their own, period. I am sure that I have made this clear as mud.
July 31, 200818 yr I am for the death penalty for heinous crimes. It is biblical. Also, on this particular statement, can you show me some scriptural evidence from the new covenant that lends support? Old Testament law I understand, but 'the Law' became of no consequence following Christ's sacrifice. I see no New Testament evidence for supporting the death penalty.
July 31, 200818 yr I am not a lawyer and I won't pretend to know the legal jargon so I will admit that perhaps my semantics may have clouded my post somewhat. For the record, no, I am not in favor of euthanasia directed or otherwise, or suicide for that matter . . .I do realize that this involves choice on the part of the individual . . . and yes their "right to life." No one has the "right" to take a life . . . even their own, period. I am sure that I have made this clear as mud. I am not trying to be a pill (though I realize that I am many times ). However, the concept of "preservation of life" ethics is so complex that sometimes it merits a really hard look at our thought process. There are so many times that we take life: Homicide Abortion Suicide Euthanasia, assisted or unassisted DNR Orders Self-defense killing Embryonic harvesting Soldiers killing during war Death Penalty Executions Accidental Deaths (non-homicide) If we use the blanket "God wants us to protect life" mantra, many of these things conflict with our thoughts and feelings.
July 31, 200818 yr Also, on this particular statement, can you show me some scriptural evidence from the new covenant that lends support? Old Testament law I understand, but 'the Law' became of no consequence following Christ's sacrifice. I see no New Testament evidence for supporting the death penalty. Hearsay, while there is no steadfast New Testament scripture that unquestionably advocates capital punishment; the principal of Old Testament Law is evident throughout the entire New Testament. Below are just a few examples of what I am speaking of: Matthew 5:21-22: Jesus is recorded as saying: "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment..." This passage speaks of one person killing -- and even being angry with -- another person. On the surface it doesn’t seem to persuade the state to execute the death penalty on a convicted criminal. However, in all probability, Jesus approved of state executions, because he upheld the validity of the Mosaic Law: not even one minor point was to be ignored. This can be documented by New Testament scripture in the following passage: Matthew 5:18-19: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Romans 13:4 “For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid: for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” Luke 16:17: "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." I would assume that “one tittle” would also include the rules set forth for appropriate punishment laid out in the many Old Testament scriptures for breaking the laws of the land. So, I still think the entire scripture upholds the guiding principle of the death penalty.
July 31, 200818 yr Hearsay, while there is no steadfast New Testament scripture that unquestionably advocates capital punishment; the principal of Old Testament Law is evident throughout the entire New Testament. Below are just a few examples of what I am speaking of: Matthew 5:21-22: Jesus is recorded as saying: "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment..." This passage speaks of one person killing -- and even being angry with -- another person. On the surface it doesn’t seem to persuade the state to execute the death penalty on a convicted criminal. However, in all probability, Jesus approved of state executions, because he upheld the validity of the Mosaic Law: not even one minor point was to be ignored. This can be documented by New Testament scripture in the following passage: Matthew 5:18-19: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Romans 13:4 “For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid: for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” Luke 16:17: "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." I would assume that “one tittle” would also include the rules set forth for appropriate punishment laid out in the many Old Testament scriptures for breaking the laws of the land. So, I still think the entire scripture upholds the guiding principle of the death penalty. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh love your enemy bless/pray for those who persecute you turn the other cheek those who live by the sword shall surely die by the sword MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD The law was established to POINT US TO GOD_ Jesus fulfills that by pointing us to God. That is the jot and tittle of the law. Jesus broke the sabbath law by healing and having his disciples pick food. You know that you can eat pork - Peter is told that he can or tells Paul that it is okay. You wear clothes made out of two kinds of cloth, WE NO LONGER HAVE SLAVES. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not use the scripture to justify corporal punishment.
July 31, 200818 yr aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh love your enemy bless/pray for those who persecute you turn the other cheek those who live by the sword shall surely die by the sword MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD The law was established to POINT US TO GOD_ Jesus fulfills that by pointing us to God. That is the jot and tittle of the law. Jesus broke the sabbath law by healing and having his disciples pick food. You know that you can eat pork - Peter is told that he can or tells Paul that it is okay. You wear clothes made out of two kinds of cloth, WE NO LONGER HAVE SLAVES. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not use the scripture to justify corporal punishment. For the record, it was capital punishment I was justifying with scripture. Say what you will, the precepts and principles are there.
July 31, 200818 yr For the record, it was capital punishment I was justifying with scripture. Say what you will, the precepts and principles are there. NO THEY ARE NOT UNLESS YOU IGNORE THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS. Capital . . . Corporal - Tomato - Tomoto :jump:
July 31, 200818 yr NO THEY ARE NOT UNLESS YOU IGNORE THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS. Capital . . . Corporal - Tomato - Tomoto :jump: You are certainly entitled to believe as you will, so am I. By the way, do you have to YELL?
August 1, 200818 yr You are certainly entitled to believe as you will, so am I. By the way, do you have to YELL? On occasion yes. When someone completely co-opts the the gospel to suggest that Jesus would support Capital Punishment then I feel the need to defend in the most passionate of terms. While many on here may think that I have no steadfast beliefs . . . I will assure you that I do. The number one is that God Is Love and by default Jesus is Love. Given that, and the teachings of the messiah who "came to bring life and bring it more abundantly", I vehemently deny that Jesus supports death over life in any situation.
August 1, 200818 yr On occasion yes. When someone completely co-opts the the gospel to suggest that Jesus would support Capital Punishment then I feel the need to defend in the most passionate of terms. While many on here may think that I have no steadfast beliefs . . . I will assure you that I do. The number one is that God Is Love and by default Jesus is Love. Given that, and the teachings of the messiah who "came to bring life and bring it more abundantly", I vehemently deny that Jesus supports death over life in any situation. While God is indeed a God of Love He is also a God of wrath. He abhors sin, and like it or not, He will punish sinners by eternal death if they are without the redemptive power of Jesus's blood. You cannot make Him only a God of Love. You can vehemently deny this truth all you wish, but it still remains the Truth.
August 1, 200818 yr While God is indeed a God of Love He is also a God of wrath. He abhors sin, and like it or not, He will punish sinners by eternal death if they are without the redemptive power of Jesus's blood. You cannot make Him only a God of Love. You can vehemently deny this truth all you wish, but it still remains the Truth. "I am LOVE" - When that is how God defines God's self, I think I can make God only a God of LOVE.
August 1, 200818 yr "I am LOVE" - When that is how God defines God's self, I think I can make God only a God of LOVE. "For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." I Peter 3:12. "But when He saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to His baptism, He said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" Matthew 3:7. "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:7-8. "(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)" Phillippians 3: 18-19. Sounds to me like the God of love is also a God of wrath just like I said before. Vipers, wrath, avenge, destruction, these don't sound like just "lovely" words to me. He is both and will punish unrepentant sinners.
August 1, 200818 yr "For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." I Peter 3:12. "But when He saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to His baptism, He said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" Matthew 3:7. "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:7-8. "(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)" Phillippians 3: 18-19. Sounds to me like the God of love is also a God of wrath just like I said before. Vipers, wrath, avenge, destruction, these don't sound like just "lovely" words to me. He is both and will punish unrepentant sinners. How do you know what all of those things mean. Which prophet had his lips BURNED as a method of purification. But lets say you are correct - those are God's decisions, not man's. The death penalty is man's decision. And while you will say it is the state, I will say in a democracy that I AM THE STATE. Therefore if the State sanctions execution I SANCTION it. FWIW, I don't.
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