July 6, 200818 yr Congregational churches, such as the Baptist and Church of God, submit issues to the church for at least confirmation. It probably slows down decision-making but keeps the congregation with at least the feeling that they are involved. I guess it depends upon church polity.
July 6, 200818 yr Congregational churches, such as the Baptist and Church of God, submit issues to the church for at least confirmation. It probably slows down decision-making but keeps the congregation with at least the feeling that they are involved. I guess it depends upon church polity. Very true. Being a Baptist I believe it's a great way of getting the entire church on board with a ministry or a project. The key is taking the time to build up the support through committees and/or teams so that all questions are addressed before going before the church body in a voting scenario. Now here me on this, I'm not advocating politicing to "get a vote out." I've found that if you see little support in the appropriate committees or private discussions with leadership, then you will probably need to modify the idea or postpone the idea. That's a good safeguard before making it a "big issue" to the whole church body.
July 7, 200818 yr Yes, By-laws state 75% is what something needs to pass. I think its funny when word gets out on a subject and all the people who show up to vote and you only see them at Easter.
July 7, 200818 yr Author Here is my problem with voting and I have two: 1. I think there would be times when a hard decision needs to be made and I am not sure the majority rule would be willing to make it. Maybe I am just cynical. 2. By allowing everyone to vote, you are giving equal weight to people's opinions who IMO shouldn't. There are people who never pray, should their opinion be equal to people who seek out God's voice regularly? There are people who do not build their life around sacrifical giving, should they have an equal voice to people who believe so ferverntly in the mission they sacrifice to make it happen? I could go on, but you get the picture.
July 7, 200818 yr Here is my problem with voting and I have two: 1. I think there would be times when a hard decision needs to be made and I am not sure the majority rule would be willing to make it. Maybe I am just cynical. 2. By allowing everyone to vote, you are giving equal weight to people's opinions who IMO shouldn't. There are people who never pray, should their opinion be equal to people who seek out God's voice regularly? There are people who do not build their life around sacrifical giving, should they have an equal voice to people who believe so ferverntly in the mission they sacrifice to make it happen? I could go on, but you get the picture. Keep in mind that I am asking this as someone who is not a member of any church...but how do you know that someone never prays or build thier life around sacrificial giving? Aren't these things between a person and God and not necessarily visible to the public (nor should they necessarily be)?
July 7, 200818 yr Here is my problem with voting and I have two: 1. I think there would be times when a hard decision needs to be made and I am not sure the majority rule would be willing to make it. Maybe I am just cynical. 2. By allowing everyone to vote, you are giving equal weight to people's opinions who IMO shouldn't. There are people who never pray, should their opinion be equal to people who seek out God's voice regularly? There are people who do not build their life around sacrifical giving, should they have an equal voice to people who believe so ferverntly in the mission they sacrifice to make it happen? I could go on, but you get the picture. As True just said, "How do we determine that?" If it's based on appearance I can tell you of plenty that appearance was misleading. As to #1, I hear what you are saying but that is where leadership has to come in and lay the ground work for building consensus. That takes patience and there are few issues I have found so needy that patience can't help them.
July 7, 200818 yr Author Keep in mind that I am asking this as someone who is not a member of any church...but how do you know that someone never prays or build thier life around sacrificial giving? Aren't these things between a person and God and not necessarily visible to the public (nor should they necessarily be)? It is between that person and God but that really isn't my point. I think we could agree that all people are not in the same place as far as "spiritual maturity" goes. However, if all votes count the same aren't we giving the spiritual mature as well as the spiritual immature the same vote? Identifying who fits what label is not important in this discussion to me.
July 7, 200818 yr It is between that person and God but that really isn't my point. I think we could agree that all people are not in the same place as far as "spiritual maturity" goes. However, if all votes count the same aren't we giving the spiritual mature as well as the spiritual immature the same vote? Identifying who fits what label is not important in this discussion to me. Then give us an alternative model. You can't merely say that those who are in an "office" of leadership are automatically spiritually mature. If we are going to qualify who is and who isn't, what benchmark do you use and how do you determine who qualifies? If you aren't looking to do that for purpose of discussion then it sounds like you are looking for someone or some group to have authority to say, "This is how it is going to be." That's fine for some churches who choose that but for congregational polity driven folks (i.e. historical Baptists) then that smacks of dictatorial (even if you have a great idea) for me and most.
July 7, 200818 yr Chenoweth has stated the argument for the weakness of the congregational form, and Hatz has stated the case for the reply. I would only add that the "church" is only as strong as its weakest member.
July 7, 200818 yr It is between that person and God but that really isn't my point. I think we could agree that all people are not in the same place as far as "spiritual maturity" goes. However, if all votes count the same aren't we giving the spiritual mature as well as the spiritual immature the same vote? Identifying who fits what label is not important in this discussion to me. If prayer and acts are between God and that person, how WOULD you go about determining who is more spiritually mature?
July 7, 200818 yr If prayer and acts are between God and that person, how WOULD you go about determining who is more spiritually mature? Well, for one example, with tithe, our church keeps a record of who gives what. Sunday school attendance is another example. Volunteering for children's leadership, mission camps and work, and other volunteer work within the church is another. And, of course, the best way is to simply ask them if they have a daily prayer life, etc. etc. Chances are if people are not participating in these ways, then their church commitment/membership, at a minimum, is either not having an impact or does not mean anything to them. Where they are with God is their business but where they are with the church is mine.
July 8, 200818 yr Well, for one example, with tithe, our church keeps a record of who gives what. Sunday school attendance is another example. Volunteering for children's leadership, mission camps and work, and other volunteer work within the church is another. And, of course, the best way is to simply ask them if they have a daily prayer life, etc. etc. Chances are if people are not participating in these ways, then their church commitment/membership, at a minimum, is either not having an impact or does not mean anything to them. Where they are with God is their business but where they are with the church is mine. I like your list. However I have a problem with the tithing issue. Jesus did not want us to give in a manner that brought attention to our gifts. Furthermore some are able to give substantially more (ala the rich man) and others give less (ala the widow). That is not the church's business IMHO.
July 8, 200818 yr I like your list. However I have a problem with the tithing issue. Jesus did not want us to give in a manner that brought attention to our gifts. Furthermore some are able to give substantially more (ala the rich man) and others give less (ala the widow). That is not the church's business IMHO. Agree with you there. IMO, the worth of tithing isn't in the $, but in the sacrifice.
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