It is standard Christian belief that anyone can be saved, and at the last moments of their life. If you don't believe that, and I assumed too much, my apologies.

 

Not a Christian standard belief. In fact I do not think you could find more than 2 Protestant Denominations that believe that.

@oldgrappler I think there is morality in the universe. It is our duty to bring justice to the world, by acting justly in our lives, both individually and as a community. I will not shirk my responsibility to act justly by handing it off to god.

 

And particularly when the alleged god has imposed a system that is not just upon us. You describe an evil man who escapes punishment and a good woman who suffers under the evil man's brutality. Under the situation that you described, I would say that it is our duty to bring justice to that situation, and if we fail to do so, then it is a failure of justice, but a failure of justice does not mean the concept of justice does not exist.

 

But let me tweak your description a bit and pose the question back to you? Your description seems to cry out that you want the man held accountable. Again, if he repents in his final hours, he will gain eternal life. Is that holding him to account? Is it just, or even moral? And the woman who suffers under his yoke? Suppose he allowed her only one book for her entire life, and it was the koran. And she prayed to allah. Does she go to hell? Many christians say yes. Is that just? or moral?

 

So, and I hope I understood your question, my answer is as an atheist, I think if we want justice in this world, we better take the bull by the horns and not pin our hopes on a god who seems to have developed a system that is not just or moral.

Not a Christian standard belief. In fact I do not think you could find more than 2 Protestant Denominations that believe that.

 

Both Jesus, and the thief on the cross next him, beg to differ.

Both Jesus, and the thief on the cross next him, beg to differ.

 

We are talking about Christianity. That event was before Christianity. The day of pentecost was not for another three weeks. Jesus was still alive when that happened, the perfect lamb had not died and risen yet. At that point, prior to the church age, belief and confession could still suffice. You could make the case that the thief did not offer a sacrifice, but its never good to use a rare exception that took place under extraordinary circumstances as your reason.

We are talking about Christianity. That event was before Christianity. The day of pentecost was not for another three weeks. Jesus was still alive when that happened, the perfect lamb had not died and risen yet. At that point, prior to the church age, belief and confession could still suffice. You could make the case that the thief did not offer a sacrifice, but its never good to use a rare exception that took place under extraordinary circumstances as your reason.

 

C'mon. So god sent Jesus to save us, and people came and asked Jesus how to be saved, and Jesus told them, and god gave us the bible for his word, but the answers that Jesus gave in the bible about how to be saved were meant only for people who were alive before Jesus died? The words of Jesus become irrelevant on matters of salvation after he died? This is why this stuff should be impossible to believe. I will admit that it is difficult to debate you on this when you have a willingness to substitute your thoughts for the words of jesus.

C'mon. So god sent Jesus to save us, and people came and asked Jesus how to be saved, and Jesus told them, and god gave us the bible for his word, but the answers that Jesus gave in the bible about how to be saved were meant only for people who were alive before Jesus died? The words of Jesus become irrelevant on matters of salvation after he died? This is why this stuff should be impossible to believe. I will admit that it is difficult to debate you on this when you have a willingness to substitute your thoughts for the words of jesus.

 

Yes. Absolutely. That is what standard Christian doctrine actually teaches. When Jesus gave sermons it taught us how to live our lives as holy children of God. Whenever Jesus was asked about how to get to heaven he talked about Old Testament Jewish concepts. Whenever Jesus would talk about future Christian concepts he would use future tense words. After Jesus died the apostles had to teach Christian doctrine to Jews so they would know what Jesus was talking about when he was alive. They had to teach about the differences between Christian baptism and the baptism of John the Baptist. In the book of Colossians they said that the old testament was nailed to the cross with Jesus so all that went away in that final act.

 

I'm kind of surprised that you are taken back by this concept. You spent several years in the Baptist Church. And well my beliefs differ a little bit from Baptists we agree on this particular issue.it is taught in the Baptist churches

So far as I have been able to discern, among christians, I believe the concept that all are sinners, and that one receives salvation thru god's grace and is not earned is the most common formulation of salvation. As such, grace is available to all, even at the last moments.

 

Never heard anything like what you said preached from any pulpit. Never heard a pastor say, "now the thief on the cross got in, cause jesus wasn't quite dead yet, so he was the last one to get in that way." Have heard the story preached about a million times with the point being an example of god's grace.

 

Not sure I understand your vision completely, but it seems to involve way too much animal sacrifice.

So far as I have been able to discern, among christians, I believe the concept that all are sinners, and that one receives salvation thru god's grace and is not earned is the most common formulation of salvation. As such, grace is available to all, even at the last moments.

 

Never heard anything like what you said preached from any pulpit. Never heard a pastor say, "now the thief on the cross got in, cause jesus wasn't quite dead yet, so he was the last one to get in that way." Have heard the story preached about a million times with the point being an example of god's grace.

 

Not sure I understand your vision completely, but it seems to involve way too much animal sacrifice.

 

Like I said in post #11

 

"Religion allows perfectly decent and sometimes intelligent sane people to believe by the billions what only lunatics could believe on their own."

@oldgrappler I think there is morality in the universe. It is our duty to bring justice to the world, by acting justly in our lives, both individually and as a community. I will not shirk my responsibility to act justly by handing it off to god.

 

And particularly when the alleged god has imposed a system that is not just upon us. You describe an evil man who escapes punishment and a good woman who suffers under the evil man's brutality. Under the situation that you described, I would say that it is our duty to bring justice to that situation, and if we fail to do so, then it is a failure of justice, but a failure of justice does not mean the concept of justice does not exist.

 

But let me tweak your description a bit and pose the question back to you? Your description seems to cry out that you want the man held accountable. Again, if he repents in his final hours, he will gain eternal life. Is that holding him to account? Is it just, or even moral? And the woman who suffers under his yoke? Suppose he allowed her only one book for her entire life, and it was the koran. And she prayed to allah. Does she go to hell? Many christians say yes. Is that just? or moral?

 

So, and I hope I understood your question, my answer is as an atheist, I think if we want justice in this world, we better take the bull by the horns and not pin our hopes on a god who seems to have developed a system that is not just or moral.

 

So your answer to my question is that, no, in the atheist view of the world there is no ultimate morality or justice but you hope that people provide it. Your position is that humans must enact justice on other humans and if they fail to it is a failure of justice but justice still exists in the universe (actually, I would say it is very limited on earth among humans).

 

My response to you will be in two separate posts.

 

First, justice, in your view, is meted out by humans or not at all and in some cases, I suppose, they get it wrong and actually perpetrate more injustice. Who determines what is just? I guess it is the community that does this and sometimes individuals who take justice into their own hands and respond to the given situation.

This does not produce justice.

 

If a woman is in Irian Jaya among the people high in the mountain forests and there is misfortune in the village, let’s say someone gets ill or falls and is severely injured, it may be assumed by the village that the spirits are angry at a person. A woman may be arbitrarily picked out (arbitrary to us but not to them) and blamed for the misfortune. She must run for her life into the forest as the village men make every effort to kill her and drive her off.

 

My friend from Communist China was the top student in his engineering class at his university. However, he was not a member of the communist party and another student was given all the honors and accolades that were due him. This was what a communist society calls justice.

 

If my original scenario had included that the brutalized woman was a Jewish woman in Nazi Germany and if we had contemplated that the Nazis were the first to produce nuclear weapons and actually won WWII, and successfully accomplished their goal, her society would have approved of her treatment. The Nazis’ view was that Jewish people were inferior and deserved the treatment they received and actually brought it on themselves. She did receive justice according to that society but none of us from our 21st century perspective would recognize it as such.

 

And if we look at our own society, we make a good faith effort at treating people justly through our court system (since it is based on Biblical ideals to a large degree, I might add). But even in our effort to enact justice, how many times have we seen where DNA evidence, unavailable at the time of a trial, now exonerates a person of a crime and he is set free after being imprisoned for years for a crime he did not commit? Try as we might, we sometimes get it wrong.

 

Humans sometimes disagree widely on what justice is or looks like. Plus, humans may prove to be quite evil and justify their actions when they are quite unjust. In addition, human judgment is fallible and therefore we may be quite wrong in what we consider to be a just action at any given moment.

 

So there is no ultimate justice in the universe according to the atheist view.

 

Here are a couple of quotes by atheists who agree with what I am saying. The first from the well-known Richard Dawkins:

 

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication some people are going to get hurt other people are going to get lucky and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it nor any justice. The universe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind pitiless existence. DNA neither knows nor cares DNA just is and we dance to its music.

 

The second quote is from atheist philosopher Kai Nielson:

 

We have not been able to show that reason requires the moral point of view or that really rational beings unhoodwinked by myth or ideology need not be individual egoists or classical amoralists. Reason does not decide here. The picture I have painted for you is not a pleasant one. Reflection on it depresses me. Pure practical reason even with a good knowledge of the facts will not take you to morality.

 

I could go on but this is sufficient to show that atheism cannot sustain ultimate morality and justice in its worldview. For the atheist, there is no ultimate morality or justice in the universe.

@oldgrappler I think there is morality in the universe. It is our duty to bring justice to the world, by acting justly in our lives, both individually and as a community. I will not shirk my responsibility to act justly by handing it off to god.

 

And particularly when the alleged god has imposed a system that is not just upon us. You describe an evil man who escapes punishment and a good woman who suffers under the evil man's brutality. Under the situation that you described, I would say that it is our duty to bring justice to that situation, and if we fail to do so, then it is a failure of justice, but a failure of justice does not mean the concept of justice does not exist.

 

But let me tweak your description a bit and pose the question back to you? Your description seems to cry out that you want the man held accountable. Again, if he repents in his final hours, he will gain eternal life. Is that holding him to account? Is it just, or even moral? And the woman who suffers under his yoke? Suppose he allowed her only one book for her entire life, and it was the koran. And she prayed to allah. Does she go to hell? Many christians say yes. Is that just? or moral?

So, and I hope I understood your question, my answer is as an atheist, I think if we want justice in this world, we better take the bull by the horns and not pin our hopes on a god who seems to have developed a system that is not just or moral.

 

My second installment:

 

Now, you asked me about the scenario I raised and tweaked slightly by you in which a brutal man, who at the end of his life repents of his evil, and the good woman, who is only given the opportunity to read the Quran and therefore could not exercise faith in Jesus before she died. The question you pose is, will the evil man if he repents on his death bed go to heaven and will the woman who was mistreated, yet acted sacrificially towards others, go to hell because she didn’t have the opportunity to hear the gospel? This outcome would not entail justice, in your view.

 

On the Christian worldview, there is morality and justice in the universe because God created the universe in a way that is consistent with His nature. He is the moral arbiter and He is the One to whom all humans will give an account. Whether the evil man with a “death-bed conversion” goes to heaven, or whether the good woman who does not have the opportunity to believe in Jesus goes to hell is not mine to decide. You may ask my opinion on the outcome but ultimately, it is not my decision. There IS ultimate morality and justice in the universe because there is a God who created all things and who upholds the standard. If this God actually exists, which we are allowed to assume because I am answering according to my Christian worldview, He will have the final say and you can be sure “the Judge of all the earth will do what is right.” He requires humans to act justly and with mercy in this world.

 

Consider this Bible passage, Romans 2:5-16:

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

So to summarize. In the atheist view of the world, the best we can hope for is that humans will sometimes act justly and do the right thing. Often this will not happen, the bad guy will win, and the good person will suffer. But that is just life in a random universe, and a world that emerged by chance and is sorted out through natural selection. There really is no ultimate morality or justice.

 

But for the Christian, even when there is no justice in this life and the bad person takes advantage of the good person without any negative consequence, it is not yet over. All humans will stand before the Judge. He will hold them accountable for every action. And He will do what is right, and just, and moral. Sometimes this will include grace and sometimes it will be wrath. It is the Moral Law-giver who decides. This is by definition a moral and just universe.

I just read today's postings and thought that it might be a good time in the discussion to post this Sam Harris quote.

 

It truly is not meant to be an insult but rather something to seriously consider.

 

If someone had never heard their entire life such beliefs before, or had been indoctrinated with them to the point they seemed believable, common, and second nature along with sharing them with a community of others, and someone out of the blue presented them, quite often they'd be looked at as just as bizarre as some cultish ideas and beliefs that would immediately be passed off by most as downright craziness.

 

"Religion allows perfectly decent and sometimes intelligent sane people to believe by the billions what only lunatics could believe on their own."

 

Like I said in post #11

 

"Religion allows perfectly decent and sometimes intelligent sane people to believe by the billions what only lunatics could believe on their own."

 

You are beginning to sound like Marco Rubio.

So your answer to my question is that, no, in the atheist view of the world there is no ultimate morality or justice but you hope that people provide it. Your position is that humans must enact justice on other humans and if they fail to it is a failure of justice but justice still exists in the universe (actually, I would say it is very limited on earth among humans).

 

My response to you will be in two separate posts.

 

First, justice, in your view, is meted out by humans or not at all and in some cases, I suppose, they get it wrong and actually perpetrate more injustice. Who determines what is just? I guess it is the community that does this and sometimes individuals who take justice into their own hands and respond to the given situation.

This does not produce justice.

 

If a woman is in Irian Jaya among the people high in the mountain forests and there is misfortune in the village, let’s say someone gets ill or falls and is severely injured, it may be assumed by the village that the spirits are angry at a person. A woman may be arbitrarily picked out (arbitrary to us but not to them) and blamed for the misfortune. She must run for her life into the forest as the village men make every effort to kill her and drive her off.

 

My friend from Communist China was the top student in his engineering class at his university. However, he was not a member of the communist party and another student was given all the honors and accolades that were due him. This was what a communist society calls justice.

 

If my original scenario had included that the brutalized woman was a Jewish woman in Nazi Germany and if we had contemplated that the Nazis were the first to produce nuclear weapons and actually won WWII, and successfully accomplished their goal, her society would have approved of her treatment. The Nazis’ view was that Jewish people were inferior and deserved the treatment they received and actually brought it on themselves. She did receive justice according to that society but none of us from our 21st century perspective would recognize it as such.

 

And if we look at our own society, we make a good faith effort at treating people justly through our court system (since it is based on Biblical ideals to a large degree, I might add). But even in our effort to enact justice, how many times have we seen where DNA evidence, unavailable at the time of a trial, now exonerates a person of a crime and he is set free after being imprisoned for years for a crime he did not commit? Try as we might, we sometimes get it wrong.

 

Humans sometimes disagree widely on what justice is or looks like. Plus, humans may prove to be quite evil and justify their actions when they are quite unjust. In addition, human judgment is fallible and therefore we may be quite wrong in what we consider to be a just action at any given moment.

 

So there is no ultimate justice in the universe according to the atheist view.

 

Here are a couple of quotes by atheists who agree with what I am saying. The first from the well-known Richard Dawkins:

 

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication some people are going to get hurt other people are going to get lucky and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it nor any justice. The universe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind pitiless existence. DNA neither knows nor cares DNA just is and we dance to its music.

 

The second quote is from atheist philosopher Kai Nielson:

 

We have not been able to show that reason requires the moral point of view or that really rational beings unhoodwinked by myth or ideology need not be individual egoists or classical amoralists. Reason does not decide here. The picture I have painted for you is not a pleasant one. Reflection on it depresses me. Pure practical reason even with a good knowledge of the facts will not take you to morality.

 

I could go on but this is sufficient to show that atheism cannot sustain ultimate morality and justice in its worldview. For the atheist, there is no ultimate morality or justice in the universe.

 

Yes. I agree there is no "ultimate justice". I have posted previously that it all consists of choices we all make, for which we must take responsibility. Both justice and morality do exist, even if they do not reach what you call "ultimate morality or justice."

 

You don't get there with a god either. To think so is a bit of self-deception and some wishful thinking.

Not sure I understand your vision completely, but it seems to involve way too much animal sacrifice.

 

How in the world would you get that? I continually said that in the old testament they did animal sacrifice but Jesus became the perfect sacrifice. Therefore we do not have to do animal sacrifices anymore.

 

I am shocked that growing up in a Baptist church , you never heard that Christianity started after the Easter story; on the day of Pentecost. The Day of Pentecost was the first big revival where a whole group was introduced to Christian baptism. Then after that the apostles had to teach that Christian baptism was for the forgiveness of sins and that John's baptism was for repentance. yes, John's baptism (the one that Jesus got) does not apply in the Christian world.

My second installment:

 

Now, you asked me about the scenario I raised and tweaked slightly by you in which a brutal man, who at the end of his life repents of his evil, and the good woman, who is only given the opportunity to read the Quran and therefore could not exercise faith in Jesus before she died. The question you pose is, will the evil man if he repents on his death bed go to heaven and will the woman who was mistreated, yet acted sacrificially towards others, go to hell because she didn’t have the opportunity to hear the gospel? This outcome would not entail justice, in your view.

 

On the Christian worldview, there is morality and justice in the universe because God created the universe in a way that is consistent with His nature. He is the moral arbiter and He is the One to whom all humans will give an account. Whether the evil man with a “death-bed conversion” goes to heaven, or whether the good woman who does not have the opportunity to believe in Jesus goes to hell is not mine to decide. You may ask my opinion on the outcome but ultimately, it is not my decision. There IS ultimate morality and justice in the universe because there is a God who created all things and who upholds the standard. If this God actually exists, which we are allowed to assume because I am answering according to my Christian worldview, He will have the final say and you can be sure “the Judge of all the earth will do what is right.” He requires humans to act justly and with mercy in this world.

 

Consider this Bible passage, Romans 2:5-16:

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

So to summarize. In the atheist view of the world, the best we can hope for is that humans will sometimes act justly and do the right thing. Often this will not happen, the bad guy will win, and the good person will suffer. But that is just life in a random universe, and a world that emerged by chance and is sorted out through natural selection. There really is no ultimate morality or justice.

 

But for the Christian, even when there is no justice in this life and the bad person takes advantage of the good person without any negative consequence, it is not yet over. All humans will stand before the Judge. He will hold them accountable for every action. And He will do what is right, and just, and moral. Sometimes this will include grace and sometimes it will be wrath. It is the Moral Law-giver who decides. This is by definition a moral and just universe.

 

I think you have very accurately stated the "standard." But there is nothing moral about it. Sounds like the "divine command" theory. God decides what is right, what is wrong, what is just. Under this theory, there is no right or wrong, but for what god says. Murder is wrong because god says so, not because it is wrong in and of itself.

 

If murder is wrong in and of itself, then we don't need god to tell us murder is wrong, we can figure it out on our own.

 

If murder is wrong only because god says so, because as you say he is the "moral arbiter" then we are adrift because we give up our logic, reason, independence, and our responsibility to decide things for ourselves. How adrift? We celebrate the murder of almost the entire human race by drowning as a "good story" Or the murder of the first born children of egypt, or a dad tying his son down and almost stabbing him. We accept human sacrifice. All of this is not only accepted, but it is celebrated.

 

What god asked abraham to do was evil. What terror his son must have felt. The only way to not see it as evil is to believe that if god said it, it must be right. And you cant say, "well, god stopped him." The kid must have been scared. And had god let him actually kill him, under your view you would have to still accept it as moral.

 

As an atheist, I can say with absolute certainty that "stabbing your son to death is wrong." A Christian would have to defer to god.

@MayfieldFan Just so you know, I am mentioning our little debate in my sermon tomorrow. I promise I'll give you props for doing a good job.